tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post9122980454234747174..comments2024-02-12T17:59:33.534-06:00Comments on RAZORED ZEN: Show versus Tell: The Plot ThickensCharles Gramlichhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-48217237696896671122010-05-19T10:50:44.208-05:002010-05-19T10:50:44.208-05:00Thank you! Finally someone has hit the nail on th...Thank you! Finally someone has hit the nail on the head!<br /><br />I've thought the whole show-and-tell rule wasn't quite spot on. A lot of really popular writers do a great deal of telling. Maybe that speaks to our culture. We want it now, we want it fast. Maybe not.<br /><br />This post was great!LisaAnnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02834877308495640917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-74331800129271566562010-05-17T21:41:40.699-05:002010-05-17T21:41:40.699-05:00I agree simply because if you read novels from a c...I agree simply because if you read novels from a century ago, they had no problem with a few info dumps along the way. I think so many people are used to TV/Movie attention spans (or editors and writers think they are) that we've forgotten that some of that is actually good to have in the story.Rachel V. Olivierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08993034871233904955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-70784238767552936542010-05-17T20:45:32.348-05:002010-05-17T20:45:32.348-05:00Just stopped reading a Richard Russo book in the m...Just stopped reading a Richard Russo book in the middle because the telling, largely in past perfect tense, was getting to be a big, slow, drag. Showing was about 10% of the whole text. Good God. And the plot crawled and had no hint of lightness. Maybe that was part of it.Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12535976327563503619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-75735144518068589772010-05-15T16:28:39.331-05:002010-05-15T16:28:39.331-05:00Shauna Roberts, I like descriptions a lot, info du...Shauna Roberts, I like descriptions a lot, info dumps of some types. I can't say I enjoy introspections much though.<br /><br />Greg Schwartz, it's a handy thing to keep in the back of your head, and to ask yourself as you go along whether you are telling when you should be showing.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-25288642050168961302010-05-13T05:39:11.753-05:002010-05-13T05:39:11.753-05:00good points. i think for novice writers, "sh...good points. i think for novice writers, "show don't tell" is probably good advice, but like you said, it gets a lot more complicated than that.Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15344808703550376121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-53060469598888833512010-05-12T16:22:00.157-05:002010-05-12T16:22:00.157-05:00I myself usually enjoy reading info dumps. Descrip...I myself usually enjoy reading info dumps. Descriptions too. And passages of introspection. That's probably why I enjoy reading 19th century novels and usually avoid suspense novels unless a friend has written it.Shauna Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03871768714926149114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-91272436703841513892010-05-12T01:20:08.895-05:002010-05-12T01:20:08.895-05:00Cloudia, yes, I suppose that's what makes it a...Cloudia, yes, I suppose that's what makes it an art instead of a science.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-39324582050186542082010-05-11T21:41:11.976-05:002010-05-11T21:41:11.976-05:00There are always exceptions to prove the rule.... ...There are always exceptions to prove the rule.... they are rules of thumb, heuristics, not absolute. Writing can never be rule-driven and be true Writing. Know the principle, then you can break it in the right way, at the right time, to great effect...<br /><br /><br /><br />Aloha from Hawaii<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://comfortspiral.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Comfort Spiral</a>Cloudiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05853753108637831069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-11773764605685134772010-05-11T17:27:46.326-05:002010-05-11T17:27:46.326-05:00Harry, indeed times and fashions do change, even i...Harry, indeed times and fashions do change, even in what readers want and what writers do who sell big.<br /><br />G., it's a tough concept too, partly because it's so vague when you come to applying it.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-72931979291337061412010-05-11T16:24:02.885-05:002010-05-11T16:24:02.885-05:00Okay, so I'm a little slow on the uptake and t...Okay, so I'm a little slow on the uptake and took me forever and a day to understand "show and tell".<br /><br />:D<br /><br />Anywho, I think with my early crappy writing I was very much show, show, show, show, show, show, show, and just a faint whiff of tell.<br /><br />I would like to think in the past four years that my writing has evolved to the point of telling what needs to be told, and showing what needs to be shown. For me, I try to keep it relatively basic to just certain kinds of scene descriptions/settings.G. B. Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09783331838434598963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-56522578006328671032010-05-11T14:06:39.048-05:002010-05-11T14:06:39.048-05:00It's not exact science and times change. What ...It's not exact science and times change. What was valid once has been altered or disregarded. However, in the basic principle this rule applies.Harry Markovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09140305922494369576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-29076835234073755982010-05-11T13:46:14.684-05:002010-05-11T13:46:14.684-05:00Bernardl, yes indeed there are. The middle men! ...Bernardl, yes indeed there are. The middle men! Or Women.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-86026446807964681652010-05-11T12:27:51.516-05:002010-05-11T12:27:51.516-05:00I agree readers have the power... but only after s...I agree readers have the power... but only after some editor promotes the manuscript into a position where a reader will see it. There are a lot of short sighted people and sometimes nonsensical parameters between a Word manuscript and the display shelf at a bookstore. :)BernardLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09722619048888613647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-7081189398246206892010-05-11T11:01:54.724-05:002010-05-11T11:01:54.724-05:00sage, yeah, you’re right, and I guess that’s what ...sage, yeah, you’re right, and I guess that’s what makes them arts in the first place.<br /><br /> Rick, I was pointing that out last night to someone about Dan Brown. Obviously many readers aren’t on the same page with the writers who criticize Brown. Of course, pretty much ever writer has less sales than Brown.<br /><br /> Michelle, I did the same thing early on, not realizing such cases that “showing” was slowing the story down far too much.<br /><br /><br /> Steve Malley, exactly. Most information is not intrinsically interesting to most people. You have to work to make it interesting. I do see some possible blog posts in that.<br /><br /> BernardL, a big question is whether it is the writer’s talent per se, or the readers who are driving the thing. The readers have much more power than we writers might tend to ascribe to them sometimes.<br /><br /> Christine Purcell, I don’t mind info dumps of certain types, if they are short and about things I’m interested in. Ultimately, I suppose it’s a selfish thing for most readers.<br /><br /> Angie, I’ve never read any of Dale Brown’s stuff. I’m not a big techno thriller fan. I don’t mind some description of military type gear, though.<br /><br /> Stewart Sternberg, I believe we are in agreement! I can see that info dumps might be needed in thrillers, especially where lots of foreign cultures and experiences are concerned.<br /><br /> Travis Cody, oh there are certainly better ways to introduce information, even if you are telling. I had to do a fair amount of telling in the Talera novels but I tried to intersperse it with “showing” if you will.<br /><br /> X. Dell, In fantasy fiction sometimes the info dump (about the past of a land or a hero) is often very interesting too. Most of us are trained as schoolkids to take in info in this fashion.<br /><br /> Harry Markov, The rule would have to be modified. Show what needs to be shown, but tell the stuff that allows you to get to the material that needs to be shown. Lol. That’s kind of convoluted.<br /><br /> steve on the slow train, I spend a lot of time trying to make my info dumps seemless too. It’s certainly an issue the writer has to work at.<br /><br /> Lana Gramlich, show don’t tell IS a rule there.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-80101261425114196452010-05-11T09:27:23.891-05:002010-05-11T09:27:23.891-05:00I've got something dramatic to show ya. ;)I've got something dramatic to show ya. ;)Lana Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06975996208260144558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-16638007459617526902010-05-11T02:50:01.051-05:002010-05-11T02:50:01.051-05:00And I've been spending hours editing my info d...And I've been spending hours editing my info dumps into the narrative. But it wasn't time wasted. I don't have the talent for giving fairly well-known information as though I were revealing a secret (Brown's "secret" passageway between the Castel Sant' Angelo and the Vatican in Angels and Demons. Kathleen said, "Everybody knows about that.") Oh, well.steve on the slow trainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18257811143869341854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-55223636458253352512010-05-11T01:18:55.086-05:002010-05-11T01:18:55.086-05:00I would continue to argue that it is not busted at...I would continue to argue that it is not busted at all. It just means show how the information you share is relevant to the story and not just simply tell it unhinged from the actual story. Showing means giving whatever you write soul. At least this is how I interprit it. <br /><br />As far as using Brown as an example, I am sure that technically speaking the guy is not one of the best, so I am accrediting something else as to his success and his readers tolerance for the mini lectures.Harry Markovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09140305922494369576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-42425086088170936952010-05-10T21:10:33.019-05:002010-05-10T21:10:33.019-05:00I think I might have said this before, but in cons...I think I might have said this before, but in conspiracy narratives the information dump is often the most compelling part. <i>The Da Vinci Code</i> is a perfect example.X. Dellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17561609651507566271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-50211485531055789872010-05-10T20:41:16.268-05:002010-05-10T20:41:16.268-05:00Oversimplified...yes, I'd agree that "sho...Oversimplified...yes, I'd agree that "show vs tell" isn't a black and white issue.<br /><br />For me, what I want as a reader is a mix of experience and information. Sometimes I can't appreciate the experience without the information. But spread it out and don't hit me with too much at once. <br /><br />As a writer, I try to avoid page after page of info dump. But I don't want to leave out all of the information I think might enhance the experience for the reader. So I try to present information as quickly as possible, and use dialog or action to impart it as much as I can.<br /><br />Here's one thing I cannot stand...introducing a new character at the beginning of an action sequence, and then giving us paragraph after paragraph of life story before finishing the action that brought the character to the page in the first place. I see that in political thrillers and it drives me nuts.Travis Codyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06192526507760146748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-40773413952052062972010-05-10T20:33:56.111-05:002010-05-10T20:33:56.111-05:00BRAVO!!! I have banned the use of the phrase from ...BRAVO!!! I have banned the use of the phrase from any literary discussion. It is absolutely meaningless. It's basically a cliche used by people who don't know what else to say about something they've read.<br /><br />Information dumps are sometimes necessary. In books like DaVinci Code they are part of the genre.Stewart Sternberg (half of L.P. Styles)https://www.blogger.com/profile/00895152179113722902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-48771052070814847652010-05-10T17:32:02.710-05:002010-05-10T17:32:02.710-05:00Dale Brown specifically writes military techno-thr...Dale Brown specifically writes military techno-thrillers, though. To readers of that genre, the pages of techno-babble are a feature, not a bug. :) I think it's more a matter of knowing the genre or subgenre so you know what's standard and what you're likely to get. Dale Brown had a bazillion fans of his own, or he did at the height of his career, and they were all people who loved that stuff.<br /><br />AngieAngiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-19783688053129423302010-05-10T17:29:30.213-05:002010-05-10T17:29:30.213-05:00I think there are two different kind of readers:
...I think there are two different kind of readers:<br /><br />Those who like info dumps and those who don't. Am I oversimplifying?<br /><br />Personally, I can't stand reading thrillers that meander and detail the exact workings of a high-tech weapon for pages and pages. But that's me. I once tried to read a novel by the other Brown (Dale). Definitely not my cup of tea!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-13834387962824490962010-05-10T16:45:10.505-05:002010-05-10T16:45:10.505-05:00I've never minded info dumps as long as they w...I've never minded info dumps as long as they weren't pages of flowery scenic description that make you regret every moment your eyeballs move along the lines. :) It all goes back to style rather than rule. The best sellers break the rules without consequence because the author's talent transcended editorial parameters.BernardLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09722619048888613647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-90832230045608407502010-05-10T16:33:35.004-05:002010-05-10T16:33:35.004-05:00Real rule of thumb should be, info dumps allowed i...Real rule of thumb should be, info dumps allowed in direct proportion to how interesting the info is. <br /><br />Then, every budding writer should have tattooed on the backs of their typing hands, 'Your info is not that interesting.'<br /><br />DVC got away with its incredibly lame info dumps because the subject matter struck a chord with lots of folks. ALso, a great deal of the exposition popped up in the form of puzzles-- a kind of conflict directly engaging the reader. Do not try this at home. <br /><br />For most of the rest of us, the info we're trying to dump is boring. Sure, we're excited about it when we're the writers, but as readers, not so much. <br /><br />Hmm, maybe it's time for me to post again...Steve Malleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17561234111786788616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-35756272116438278402010-05-10T15:38:59.961-05:002010-05-10T15:38:59.961-05:00Hi Charles,
I don't worry too much about this...Hi Charles,<br /><br />I don't worry too much about this dictate anymore as it was POUNDED into me in graduate school and now I find it useful to an extent. Myth indeed. I think it's more important in fiction to show (but not always) and you can tell a lot in creative nonfiction and in fact are required to explain your sorry self which is why I prefer fiction in many ways. But I suffered under too much showing early on -- she walked across the room, turned the door knob, walked through the doorway, stepped on a step. I'm not the brightest bulb in the tanning bed to be sure.Michelle's Spellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15769666862403600253noreply@blogger.com