tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post8973439171785283435..comments2024-02-12T17:59:33.534-06:00Comments on RAZORED ZEN: Word Count and RuthlessnessCharles Gramlichhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-51012285475156602932008-10-17T11:22:00.000-05:002008-10-17T11:22:00.000-05:00How true, Charles...Can you switch easily from one...How true, Charles...<BR/>Can you switch easily from one to another?Vesperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12417602625059442986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-86463730720141395572008-10-16T07:54:00.000-05:002008-10-16T07:54:00.000-05:00Anthony, no problem. So much about writing is abo...Anthony, no problem. So much about writing is about "feel." There are no hard and fast rules for so many aspects of the craft.<BR/><BR/>Barbara, good luck with those. I hope they do well.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-13368904890200079512008-10-15T22:07:00.000-05:002008-10-15T22:07:00.000-05:00Thanks for the tips on cutting for short stories. ...Thanks for the tips on cutting for short stories. I'm planning on sending out a few to see if they bounce.Barbara Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00610140328527165017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-33918997328288894682008-10-10T00:15:00.000-05:002008-10-10T00:15:00.000-05:00Thanks for the write up. I will have to reevaluate...Thanks for the write up. I will have to reevaluate my writing style and see where I want to take my story. I posted a few exerts on my blogger. It is quite rough but I was looking for feedback on the content and the flow.<BR/><BR/>I am still trying to master the art of deciding when to describe a scene for quality and when to just have a short lived run through it. Characters may be a little easier to deal with then actual scenery. Why describe someone if they are only going to be involved for a brief glimpse rather then a recurring character.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for the insight.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10722975108848021871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-51763735246848225032008-10-09T10:57:00.000-05:002008-10-09T10:57:00.000-05:00Fancy, many of us do enjoy cake.Josephine, I think...Fancy, many of us do enjoy cake.<BR/><BR/>Josephine, I think, word for word, short stories are certainly harder to write than novels. Of course, with many fewer words a single short story doesn't compete against a novel. But match it word to word and I believe it does. And even more for good flash fiction.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-70391725663490627872008-10-09T10:14:00.000-05:002008-10-09T10:14:00.000-05:00Stuart Kaminsky had a writer friend of his tell hi...Stuart Kaminsky had a writer friend of his tell him he thought short stories were harder to write than novels - SK did not agree, but I could see the friend's point.<BR/><BR/>I seldom read the modern, current long stories I see published, and I don't read flash either - there's an art form to shorts - too long or too short don't seem very artful to me.Josephine Damianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17952030380866201241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-19462133482565429462008-10-09T08:42:00.000-05:002008-10-09T08:42:00.000-05:00*LOL*...my cake is that one with chocolate and whe...*LOL*...my cake is that one with chocolate and when it come to that yum-yum thing I put it in my mouth and just eat it up...what is left is the short version of everything in my writing wor(l)d. ;)FANCYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02608983168583167889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-42636035260740972672008-10-09T00:20:00.000-05:002008-10-09T00:20:00.000-05:00Writtenwyrd, Shauna's right. Doing short stories ...Writtenwyrd, Shauna's right. Doing short stories allows a lot more experimentation in a short time and I think strengthens you ultimately.<BR/><BR/>Shauna, exactly.<BR/><BR/>Rick, I sold a series of 7 to 9 thousand word heroic fantasies to Shadow Sword back in the early 1990s but there aren't many markets for tales that long around.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-22396174316921494022008-10-08T21:16:00.000-05:002008-10-08T21:16:00.000-05:00Hey Charles- I still sell stories in the 8,000 to ...Hey Charles- I still sell stories in the 8,000 to 9,000 word range to Sam's Dot Publishing, but, as editor Tyree Campbell says, "They have to be damned good." If I'd written them in the 3,000 to 5,000 word range, they would have moved with a lot less scrutiny.<BR/><BR/>So I agree with you, ruthlessly trim what you write, because if you don't, some editor is likely to suggest you do anyway.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14546882686381428986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-44978417401537625692008-10-08T13:02:00.000-05:002008-10-08T13:02:00.000-05:00WRITTENWYRDD, I agree. In short stories, one can p...WRITTENWYRDD, I agree. In short stories, one can play with different voices, styles, POVs, lengths, and types of characters enough to get a feel for them AND one can do lots of short stories in the time it takes to write a novel.Shauna Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03871768714926149114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-11698375635077966802008-10-08T12:55:00.000-05:002008-10-08T12:55:00.000-05:00Yes, there you've written the reason I focus on no...Yes, there you've written the reason I focus on novel length. But I'm trying to work on short stuff now, learn that aspect of crafting stories. <BR/><BR/>I've begun to think that you better learn the craft of writing plot by writing short stories, you see.writtenwyrddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02280711822302493122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-82078493976529835692008-10-08T12:41:00.000-05:002008-10-08T12:41:00.000-05:00Rachel, it certainly takes a switch in gears to go...Rachel, it certainly takes a switch in gears to go from short stories to novels. In both directions.<BR/><BR/>virginia Lady, it can be tough for sure.<BR/><BR/>Merisi, I like most of his work a lot but Snow Leopard is just an incredible work. Most of my favorite short stories are genre works, such as "hangover" by John D. MacDonald.<BR/><BR/>Benjibopper, I used to have to write it and cut it, but these days I can keep it in the head and not get it down on paper. Most of the time.<BR/><BR/>Jennybean, hello.<BR/><BR/>Shauna, I think I find it harder to switch from nonfic to fiction, but still the switch from novel to story and back is tough for me.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-11027252357604014682008-10-08T12:32:00.000-05:002008-10-08T12:32:00.000-05:00I write both short stories and novels. I find it g...I write both short stories and novels. I find it gets easier over time to switch back and forth—it becomes more of a conscious mental "clicking" of a switch.Shauna Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03871768714926149114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-45531984411328489942008-10-08T12:17:00.000-05:002008-10-08T12:17:00.000-05:00I'm trying out a new genre... check me out at suns...I'm trying out a new genre... check me out at <BR/><BR/>sunshineonmytoes.blogspot.comJennybeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862602135468470367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-8802732467832159622008-10-08T11:57:00.000-05:002008-10-08T11:57:00.000-05:00good advice. i've been thinking about this lately ...good advice. i've been thinking about this lately too, trying to shift my thinking to see a short story as a scene. all that backstory should stay in the brain, or be written and cut. they help the writer but not the reader.Chris Benjaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00402945887045545024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-36112198701750035112008-10-08T11:48:00.000-05:002008-10-08T11:48:00.000-05:00P.S.: I noticed that "Snow Leopard" is your all ti...P.S.: I noticed that "Snow Leopard" is your all time favorite book. I guess I must have mentioned before that Peter Matthiessen is one of my fav writers. ;-)Merisihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16781937797213521146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-110307299583987372008-10-08T11:47:00.000-05:002008-10-08T11:47:00.000-05:00Thank you for the insights! I have had many a disc...Thank you for the insights! <BR/><BR/>I have had many a discussion with friends, avid readers, who do not appreciate short stories. They complain about them being too short. *smile* Do you say the same about short poems, I ask them. They do not understand. ;-)<BR/><BR/>My three favorite short stories (or should I say the ones that come immediately to mind?) are:<BR/><BR/>- Richard Ford's "<I>Calling</I>"<BR/>("A Multitude of Sins")<BR/>- Raymond Carver's, "<I>Call Me When You Need Me</I>" (Collection of the same title)<BR/>- Denis Johnson's "<I>Train Dreams</I>"<BR/>(The Best American Short Stories 1992)<BR/><BR/>Short stories, yes,<BR/>too short? No! <BR/><BR/>Btw, "Train Dreams" has been published in 2004 in Germany as a novella, to great success apparently.Merisihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16781937797213521146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-32622225979463519412008-10-08T09:50:00.000-05:002008-10-08T09:50:00.000-05:00Excellent points, Charles. Hard to do, but necess...Excellent points, Charles. Hard to do, but necessary if you want to write a short.Virginia Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16641613214603672322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-32011010399950006002008-10-08T09:43:00.000-05:002008-10-08T09:43:00.000-05:00Yeah. What you said. And then I get so used to wri...Yeah. What you said. And then I get so used to writing short stories that when I move to try to write a novel, I get stuck, because I'm used to cutting everything out.Rachel V. Olivierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08993034871233904955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-79717650127474784442008-10-08T09:25:00.000-05:002008-10-08T09:25:00.000-05:00David Cranmer, I went through a period where they ...David Cranmer, I went through a period where they got somewhat longer, but now I think I'm heading down in wordcount again. I've been writing a lot of flash fictions.<BR/><BR/>Crazycath, glad you enjoyed. All of us are always learning more about the craft.<BR/><BR/>Laughingwolf, Yes it is.<BR/><BR/>Erik, I wish it wasn't so but it certainly seems so.<BR/><BR/>Steve Malley, I never really thought of that but Boy named Sue is certainly a story.<BR/><BR/>Angie, I know, reading some of those old novels, like Moby Dick, can be agony. But I still find quite a few newer authors who seem incredibly wordy. Stephen King comes to mind in some of his novels.<BR/><BR/>Stewart, agreed. that's why I'm enjoying collections of flash fiction these days.<BR/><BR/>Travis, I enjoy good description too, especialy in SF or fantasy where you're dealing with another world.<BR/><BR/>Scott, good imagery, I'd say. I agree.<BR/><BR/>Lana, you make some good points, if you know what I'm saying.<BR/><BR/>Ivan, I haven't read her stories. Will have to give some a try. I really found myself disliking Carver's stories because they never had a point. At least for me.<BR/><BR/>Mark, Yes, I'd agree that had a big impact. The pulps used to advertise a "full new novel from ERB" or something but it would really be a 30,000 serial of some type. Not much market for those today. I was lucky to get Swords and Wings serialized in the 90s.<BR/><BR/>Bernardl, that's a good point, maybe a niche the epublishers could exploit. I see Fictionwise does that to some extent. They've got sevearl of my short stories for sale individually there.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-81141213866431969072008-10-08T07:48:00.000-05:002008-10-08T07:48:00.000-05:00I think short stories and novellas might flourish ...I think short stories and novellas might flourish with e-book publishing popularity. The price can be adjusted for a download so as to make them very attractive, and they can be grouped in small collections. They do it all the time in erotic romance e-book publishing and the concept works. I see no reason why this couldn't be done in other genres.BernardLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09722619048888613647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-74780262240227533762008-10-08T05:51:00.000-05:002008-10-08T05:51:00.000-05:00I think that the death of serialization in publica...I think that the death of serialization in publication led to the downfall of the in between size stories. A 10 k story could be a bit more intricate then a 2k, but publishing a longer story in 5 installments is not so much available anymore.the walking manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10058913927297370740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-47618167564208449842008-10-08T00:18:00.000-05:002008-10-08T00:18:00.000-05:00It is my fim belief, especially after reading Till...It is my fim belief, especially after reading Tillie Olsen's "Ironing John's Shorts", that a short story has to come to a point.<BR/>Heh. A moment of revelation?<BR/><BR/>There really has has to be this terrific "aha!" at the end-- and even throughout the story before we come to the "aha."<BR/>It is really like a long poem.<BR/><BR/>Tillie Olsen should be admired becaue her stories emulate poetry.<BR/><BR/>And to sort of agree with<EM> rhfay,</EM> every word does count.ivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05662075375182633162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-51864029076747552162008-10-07T23:47:00.000-05:002008-10-07T23:47:00.000-05:00You make good points here, baby, AND you're damned...You make good points here, baby, AND you're damned sexy. What else could a woman want? ;)Lana Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06975996208260144558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-33756116999578898312008-10-07T21:48:00.000-05:002008-10-07T21:48:00.000-05:00Charles, I think this is true..the novel and the s...Charles, I think this is true..the novel and the short story(or even the 'novella') are completely different animals. The short story is the quick, sharp short series of strikes, and the novel is the deliberate, piece by piece attack, if I may make a somewhat violent metaphor.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09726570487056061877noreply@blogger.com