tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post4039493862189744250..comments2024-02-12T17:59:33.534-06:00Comments on RAZORED ZEN: Who are you Trying to Impress 3Charles Gramlichhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-36315062493792002862009-01-31T23:01:00.000-06:002009-01-31T23:01:00.000-06:00Miladysa, judging by ROYDS that's a good thing eh?...Miladysa, judging by ROYDS that's a good thing eh?<BR/><BR/>Mary Witzl, sometime I should explore, not so much the audience, as the "need" to write. That sounds kind of like what you are talking about here.<BR/><BR/>Barbara, I've thought a time or two about writing something popular but I just can't seem to wrap my head around it.<BR/><BR/>Shauna, I have to admit, it "does" bother me when people don't like my work. I know you can't please everyone, but I still feel upset when someone really dislikes something I've done. I do get over it, though.<BR/><BR/>Ivan, I typically don't edit my blog posts as carefully for grammar as I do things I submit for publication. You got me on that one, for sure.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-48610232912057647712009-01-28T19:05:00.000-06:002009-01-28T19:05:00.000-06:00This is becoming something like the argument betwe...This is becoming something like the argument between Bishop Berkeley and the philosopher David Hume.<BR/>It was a about mind and matter.<BR/>Everybody was splitting hairs.<BR/>Said an irritated Bishop Berkeley after arguing with Hume as to whether reality was mind or matter, he finally said, "No matter. Never mind."<BR/>But in grammar it seems even more subtle: The the use of who and whom. Doctor, you've got to re-read your Fowler. And there is a tendency also to get singulars and plurals jumbled up up here and there. "If someone was writing only for themselves, wouldn’t no one else ever know? Except, perhaps, by accident"-- Sort of register and ouch there.<BR/><BR/>But then we are a pair o' Docs, though my paper is largely buckshee, as they used to say in the military.<BR/>Trouble with us MFA's, I suppose.<BR/>We think that we are real PhD's.<BR/>Most of us go on to distributing telephone books and driving cabs. :)ivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05662075375182633162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-57458299238320565662009-01-28T16:34:00.000-06:002009-01-28T16:34:00.000-06:00I'm reading these in order and haven't gotten to n...I'm reading these in order and haven't gotten to nunber 4 yet. So you may already have covered this point there, and if so, I apologize. <BR/><BR/>I said earlier that I write primarily for myself. Yet because I belong to two critique groups and actively market my stories and manuscripts, you yourself might put me in the "write for others" group.<BR/><BR/>I think there's a middle ground here where I belong. I write for myself in that I write the types of stories and books that I want to read and I attempt to write what sounds beautiful and lucid to me. It doesn't bother me when people criticize my writing, partly because I have a thick skin but partly because if it pleases me, I don't care that much if it pleases others. <BR/><BR/>On the other hand, I already have a career in nonfiction and now want to make a career in fiction. I do pay attention to what my critique groups say because I want my work to be the best possible. I do pay attention to the reading level of my works because I want to have the widest audience possible.Shauna Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03871768714926149114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-11080366654166291122009-01-28T09:39:00.000-06:002009-01-28T09:39:00.000-06:00I tend to write the type of stories I prefer to re...I tend to write the type of stories I prefer to read before considering whether a reader would enjoy them.<BR/><BR/>This has been a great series, Charles, both from your posts and the comment section.Barbara Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00610140328527165017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-58291620682842651752009-01-28T02:20:00.000-06:002009-01-28T02:20:00.000-06:00These posts about writing have given me so much fo...These posts about writing have given me so much food for thought, Charles. <BR/><BR/>I've been thinking about who I'm really writing for for a long time now and I'm still of two (or more) minds about it. I'm definitely writing to please myself in that I'm telling stories I think I'd enjoy reading. And I definitely want other writers to like what I'm writing too, though if some don't, I can live with that as long as I'm happy with what I've written. I don't care if I please critics because I've read the work that HAS pleased them, and some of it doesn't impress me at all. But when I try to imagine an audience, I feel uneasy and I think it is because I long to impress people I'd never dream of being able to impress. That doesn't mean that I disagree with you -- far from it. And it is no doubt why I remain unpublished.Mary Witzlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06458299046574564155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-68741395335760047632009-01-27T16:35:00.000-06:002009-01-27T16:35:00.000-06:00Ohhhh now you're scaring me! LOLOhhhh now you're scaring me! LOLMiladysahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08065128196666157541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-39714825793508513132009-01-27T10:52:00.000-06:002009-01-27T10:52:00.000-06:00Jennifer, I'm a big fan of seeing myself so I like...Jennifer, I'm a big fan of seeing myself so I like that kind of thing, but truly fine writing has to have both seeing and feeling to work well. Or so it seems to me. Blogs are definitely a form of writing, although most of our blogs are sort of chatty in outlook and that is more about feeling and humor than visualization.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-62058606612570444562009-01-26T17:45:00.000-06:002009-01-26T17:45:00.000-06:00I have REALLY enjoyed this series of posts.Now THI...I have REALLY enjoyed this series of posts.<BR/><BR/>Now THIS is the writer that I most identify with (I cringe at the thought of calling myself a writer but let's face it - there ARE words on my blog).<BR/><BR/>And YES! I love the story. I love the entertainment value. I love simple words describing situations and what is in my imagination. I shy away from flowery words and details yet adore emotion. I care more for my blog readers being able to feel what I felt than to picture what I saw. Does that make sense?<BR/><BR/>The problem is that it seems like conversation more than... what.. literature? I have 'talked' the story instead of the story being told. That probably makes NO sense.<BR/><BR/>Ha! I am proving for sure that I am NOT a writer in this comment.jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08547226679311827501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-75711780213495375592009-01-26T15:47:00.000-06:002009-01-26T15:47:00.000-06:00Michelle, at least the internet seems to have crea...Michelle, at least the internet seems to have created a potential way for some of us to reach those audiences who like the same thing we do, but I've found in practice it's not that easy.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-52606270018494291402009-01-26T12:17:00.000-06:002009-01-26T12:17:00.000-06:00Hey Charles,I've really enjoyed this series of pos...Hey Charles,<BR/><BR/>I've really enjoyed this series of post. It makes you think. I guess what I eventually came to as a writer was simple -- the only thing I ever wanted in life was to write something that would make a reader like me who had just randomly picked up a book pass a few hours in an enjoyable way. I read a lot -- so that influences me. And I think every writer has his or her people, the group that gets it. If you're lucky, your people find you.Michelle's Spellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15769666862403600253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-89074926742084090452009-01-26T08:50:00.000-06:002009-01-26T08:50:00.000-06:00Steve, I think most writers, but not all, probably...Steve, I think most writers, but not all, probably aim for a reader who is something like they are. I've used lavender and argent in my work. I don't necessarily consider them "pretentious." They are not the simplest words that can be used, though. I think folks are misunderstanding me and thinking I'm attacking or looking down on any writing for other than the reader. "Nothing" could be further from the case.<BR/><BR/>Cloudia, glad you are enjoying.<BR/><BR/>Robin, I write fiction primarily because I enjoy it, but there are other reasons that all play a role. Glad you are enjoying the dicussion.<BR/><BR/>Szelsofa, I try not to judge people's decisions on why they do things. There are many good reasons for doing almost anything.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-1690121506432568892009-01-26T07:15:00.000-06:002009-01-26T07:15:00.000-06:00A great series I've just put myself into reading, ...A great series I've just put myself into reading, Charles.<BR/>I value your great deal of acceptance 'There's not hing particularly wring with...' - as we are all different. Even one is not the same s/he used to be a second ago :)SzélsőFahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11600289147447182465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-79627736246558697702009-01-26T00:45:00.000-06:002009-01-26T00:45:00.000-06:00Wow,what a lively debate! I so agree with Lisa on...Wow,what a lively debate! I so agree with Lisa on some levels.<BR/><BR/>I get these characters, sort of sketch them out...and the the little weiners go off and do their own thing and throw the plot completely out of whack. But they're generally right.<BR/><BR/>I said before I write for 'readers' and what I meant was I preferred 'reader's feedback'.<BR/><BR/>At the risk of sounding trite?...I write because I have to, because I want to, and because it soothes my overactive imagination? It's FUN to create alternate worlds (not scifi...just fiction) and tell a story....I write for one reason and one reason only.<BR/><BR/>I enjoy it.Robinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12641134847491095439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-11746461118438560042009-01-25T23:52:00.000-06:002009-01-25T23:52:00.000-06:00This is a great series of posts. Thank you & a...This is a great series of posts. Thank you & aloha-Cloudiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05853753108637831069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-45066510094090254562009-01-25T23:24:00.000-06:002009-01-25T23:24:00.000-06:00Spyscribbler has a good point--my characters are c...Spyscribbler has a good point--my characters are constantly giving me advice. Occasionally it's bad advice.<BR/><BR/>But your debate with Lisa is most interesting. And it suggests that writing for oneself may be a good strategy. Rather than trying to impress the reader with one's vocabulary or consciously "dumbing down" the text, the writer can aim for a reader like him- or herself. Argent is pretentious, but lavender isn't, as Lisa point out. The distinction is ultimately the writer's to make, with his or her experience as the criterion.steve on the slow trainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18257811143869341854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-83926027927830079142009-01-25T21:00:00.000-06:002009-01-25T21:00:00.000-06:00Travis Erwin, don't worry about that. You've got ...Travis Erwin, don't worry about that. You've got enough on your mind. Glad you're enjoying.<BR/><BR/>J. R., when I'm in the throes of the first draft I think it often is primarily for me, at least. I keep the audience in mind more when I'm doing a revision.<BR/><BR/>Spyscribbler, I didn't really think of that, writing for the characters. it does feel like that sometimes.<BR/><BR/>Heff, I think so, although it might be fore different types of readers.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-33761009651038219782009-01-25T18:24:00.000-06:002009-01-25T18:24:00.000-06:00I think EVERY writer secretly writes for readers, ...I think EVERY writer secretly writes for readers, whether they choose to admit it or not. I could be wrong, though.Heffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13396114362826135207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-28936896215951835972009-01-25T16:17:00.000-06:002009-01-25T16:17:00.000-06:00I don't think I write for myself. Well, I don't kn...I don't think I write for myself. Well, I don't know. I don't know why I write, really. When it's really tough, I write for money. After I get a reader email, I write for readers. I don't know if I write for myself. I'm near the end of my WIP, so it's like writing through mud, and I'm sure as heck not doing that for myself, LOL!<BR/><BR/>Come to think of it, sometimes I feel like I write for my characters!Spy Scribblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299551957327543491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-13761730164135103562009-01-25T15:43:00.000-06:002009-01-25T15:43:00.000-06:00I'd like to say that I write just for myself, but ...I'd like to say that I write just for myself, but that's not what happens. There are times where I'm "in the moment" - times where it doesn't seem to matter who my future readers are. Heck, if I'm on a roll with my words I'm thinking of nothing else. Does this make sense? Do you have a couch? Should I tell you my problems.JR's Thumbprintshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10479324326541901987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-30096484625379163142009-01-25T15:15:00.000-06:002009-01-25T15:15:00.000-06:00This has been a very good series Charles. Sorry I ...This has been a very good series Charles. Sorry I haven't commented more.Travis Erwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09420879160702098979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-77086386981395644822009-01-25T15:02:00.000-06:002009-01-25T15:02:00.000-06:00Laughingwolf, I mainly just wanted to get people t...Laughingwolf, I mainly just wanted to get people to think about their audience.<BR/><BR/>Barrie, oh you should definitely keep those. They can always provide research.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-23364434237987208542009-01-25T14:47:00.000-06:002009-01-25T14:47:00.000-06:00Speaking of writing for yourself, I have some real...Speaking of writing for yourself, I have some really private, personal, achey adolescent diaries. I really need to get rid of them. But I can't....Barriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04678698296265168217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-7272887936465117692009-01-25T13:51:00.000-06:002009-01-25T13:51:00.000-06:00i think we're pretty much on the same page... just...i think we're pretty much on the same page... just get there a bit differentlylaughingwolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08873675614347328116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-9100917726809653682009-01-25T10:04:00.000-06:002009-01-25T10:04:00.000-06:00Greg, A question only you can answer.Lana, nothing...Greg, A question only you can answer.<BR/><BR/>Lana, nothing seems to come easy, does it?<BR/><BR/>Mimi, marketing has proved immensely tougher for me than the writing. And much less fun.<BR/><BR/>Lisa, I think we’re actually arguing much the same thing. There is “definitely” a market for writing that tends toward a challenging vocabulary or for those that use reference to real events or artists. That market is toward other writers/readers/peers, or language mavens, and not toward the person who is “just” a reader. James Patterson writes for “just” readers. James Lee Burke writes for writers/readers/peers. Now not all of the audience for Burke’s work will consider themselves writers, but they will definitely have a taste for language that Patterson’s readers don’t really care about. I’m not trying to say there is no place for writing for critics, or peers, or readers. There’s certainly a place. I’m just trying to say that the writer should consciously understand what they are trying to achieve.<BR/><BR/>Mark, I think you hit the nail on the head. If they hadn’t wanted readers other than themselves they wouldn’t have been there with their tattered notebooks. They said they were writing for themselves as a way to protect their feelings. I understand that. Writing can be terribly hurtful at times. <BR/><BR/>Maalie, mostly my focus in this series of posts is about fiction, which can inform but which I’m not sure is the primary motive. Nonfiction, certainly may have a primary focus on informing.<BR/><BR/>Pattinase, hum, I could almost never read a story about a person of no consequence’s day. The reason being, I live that day pretty much every day. And I almost always want to read about something different or new to my experience. But you make a good point about plot and action.<BR/><BR/>Bernardl, I know that many writers do exactly that. I’m pretty much one of them. But in a couple of cases in groups I’ve been in the writers have said: “I don’t want to be published. I only write for myself.”Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-21664462372978784452009-01-25T09:07:00.000-06:002009-01-25T09:07:00.000-06:00Your friends from the writing group may have meant...Your friends from the writing group may have meant they were writing first for themselves, rather than only for themselves. The drudgery of the editing process dictates we love what we write, or we won't survive the editing. :)BernardLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09722619048888613647noreply@blogger.com