tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post2240752823603860075..comments2024-02-12T17:59:33.534-06:00Comments on RAZORED ZEN: Withholding InformationCharles Gramlichhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-65218634518218545402010-09-13T08:06:34.804-05:002010-09-13T08:06:34.804-05:00Merisi, yup. for sure.Merisi, yup. for sure.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-27963548005479976322010-09-08T10:20:00.052-05:002010-09-08T10:20:00.052-05:00I could not agree more!I could not agree more!Merisihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16781937797213521146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-82555090444706057252010-09-06T19:44:01.297-05:002010-09-06T19:44:01.297-05:00travis Cody, it can definitely be tough to keep to...travis Cody, it can definitely be tough to keep too.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-48144872540547943252010-09-06T16:08:42.444-05:002010-09-06T16:08:42.444-05:00I like that rule. I struggle with it all the time...I like that rule. I struggle with it all the time.Travis Codyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06192526507760146748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-48174905206954473632010-09-05T19:09:15.126-05:002010-09-05T19:09:15.126-05:00Middle Ditch, I agree. I heard the quote as somet...Middle Ditch, I agree. I heard the quote as something like "easy writing is curst hard reading." <br /><br />ivan, yep.<br /><br />Dayana Stockdale, thanks for visiting. Glad you found something worthwhile.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-37750780693709865282010-09-05T16:08:18.232-05:002010-09-05T16:08:18.232-05:00Thank you for that guideline. I ALWAYS wonder abou...Thank you for that guideline. I ALWAYS wonder about information. is it too much too soon, not enough? It is the biggest thing I freak out about when writing. I'm going to come back and read this post over and over til I've got in in my brain!Dayana Stockdalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03732725838165251900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-72102229524508503822010-09-05T13:17:00.305-05:002010-09-05T13:17:00.305-05:00Oh, an Amen on that one, Monique!Oh, an Amen on that one, Monique!ivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05662075375182633162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-75167152456766316292010-09-05T12:56:20.792-05:002010-09-05T12:56:20.792-05:00Oh and someone once said "The easier the read...Oh and someone once said "The easier the read, the more painstaking the writing was". SO true!!!Middle Ditchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16493665280732775898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-14920437252455754552010-09-05T12:54:24.277-05:002010-09-05T12:54:24.277-05:00Less is always more. Withhold, withhold, withhold....Less is always more. Withhold, withhold, withhold. Not easy therefore re-writes are of the upmost essential. Great post Charles.Middle Ditchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16493665280732775898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-87919343919376599372010-09-05T10:21:28.234-05:002010-09-05T10:21:28.234-05:00Deka, I am too. We've got a real community go...Deka, I am too. We've got a real community going here of folks coming and talking and even returning to continue the conversation. I'm amazed and humbled by it, and appreciative.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-90646625959823476552010-09-05T04:27:34.848-05:002010-09-05T04:27:34.848-05:00I always be amaed by how many comments ypou have i...I always be amaed by how many comments ypou have in your entries, Charles. This is the best part of them, talking about the stuff you write.Deka Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08328847551867893941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-28251867059515116692010-09-05T00:26:36.807-05:002010-09-05T00:26:36.807-05:00Cloudia, thanks for the kind words.Cloudia, thanks for the kind words.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-65906677366842398962010-09-05T00:25:53.203-05:002010-09-05T00:25:53.203-05:00Steve Malley, readers both hate it and love it. T...Steve Malley, readers both hate it and love it. They hate it if you don't answer the questions eventually. That's for sure.<br /><br />ivan, growing up on a farm I think you naturally inculcate alot of things about the weather. it becomes part of you, and thus into the writing.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-39345165837610981452010-09-05T00:25:05.249-05:002010-09-05T00:25:05.249-05:00Another important lesson, Charles. You never waste...Another important lesson, Charles. You never waste our time, you give practical "gems." You are not stingy at ALL!<br /><br /><br /><br />Thank you<br /><br /><br />http://cutand-dry.blogspot.com/2010/09/have-fun-long-weekend.htmlCloudiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05853753108637831069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-71280759817617222112010-09-04T17:05:07.427-05:002010-09-04T17:05:07.427-05:00Charles,
Interesting about conveying just enough...Charles, <br /><br />Interesting about conveying just enough information... Leave information to the bean counters in words.<br /><br />I opine you've got to think of writing as <em>writin'</em><br /><br />You can't just perigrinate, pass on information and shoot the shit like you do across the neighbour's clotheline--if anybody still has clothlines.<br />There is composition, and there is writin'--two different things.<br /><br />For example, a friend and I are working on his novel. He gives me a paragraph which is pretty well a statement of fact about a character..<br /><br />I tell him to try to achieve the magic, to turn a montage of words into something almost emulating poetry. breathe life, first into the words, and thereby into the character.<br /><br />How do you do that? I think it starts with George Orwell's famous essay on writiing, the difference between a sociological tract, say, on a person's prospects in life --to the profundity of something like Ecclesiastes in the Bible.<br /><br />Heh. I still have to smile at Joan Rivers' joke where she says every time she reads the Bible, she has to mark "true" in the margin every few chapters. :)<br /><br />I am intrigued by your use of the word "wind" in your book before the critique group.<br /><br /><em>One group member wanted me to reveal more about a character when we first meet her. Another wanted to know what role the "wind" was playing in the book because I'd featured the breeze in each of the previous chapters we'd looked at.</em><br /><br />You were right in withholding your reasons for holding back the role the wind was playing.<br /><br />Better to go the classic New Yorker way. Detail, detail, detail--a little climax here--and more detail detail, detail. Finally, Big Climax!, both in the story's natural deonouement and all the details in the writing that led to the big climax.<br />If you give it away too soon, it's be in the convention of realism all right, but too much realism, a "climax" right at the get go.<br /><br />Heh. In fact one of our famous Canadian writers may have written an essay on the word wind when he penned his famous "Who Has Seen the Wind?" It is, in fact, a Canadian classic by W.O. Mitchell.<br />Mitchell was a farm boy.<br />You were once a farm boy<br /><br />Hey, greatness. :)ivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05662075375182633162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-48346836895732751952010-09-04T17:01:08.081-05:002010-09-04T17:01:08.081-05:00Excellent post on withholding. It's a great te...Excellent post on withholding. It's a great technique for pulling the reader in and ratcheting up suspense, but readers do generally hate it. Fortunately, very few of the actually have the author in the room to ask 'who's that guy?' 'what's he going to do?' 'but they get back together, right?'Steve Malleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17561234111786788616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-59632380523518240902010-09-04T13:31:16.347-05:002010-09-04T13:31:16.347-05:00Heff, that's me. I just let it all hang out....Heff, that's me. I just let it all hang out. So to speak.<br /><br />BStearns, I'll post one of the opening chapters later this week. Thanks for the idea.<br /> <br />Lana Gramlich, you have no idea how hard I'm biting my tongue right now, sweetums. I'm coming in the other room to tell you what I'm thinking. :)<br /><br />Ty Johnston, I think suspense really depends on it.<br /><br />Ron, definitely a fine line to walk, but an important one to balance on.<br /><br />Leigh Russell, and unfortunately, different readers will have different lines. can't walk 'em all.<br /><br />Rachel V. Olivier, I think when I first started I wanted to get everything out first to set things up, but over time I've started to withhold more and more info.<br /><br />sage, it's one that's very tempting to break.<br /><br />Carole, maybe like Kenny Rogers sang, you gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em.<br /><br />G., I've almost always enjoyed the critique groups I've been in, and over the years have developed a pretty tough skin.<br /><br />Kate Sterling, hopefully I haven't added too much to the "burden."<br /><br />laughingwolf, yep, and my critique group doesn't need to know quite a bit of stuff just yet.<br /><br />Harry Markov, I think in order to withhold info you need to have a pretty clear idea of what is important and not so important yourself. Sometimes I'm not clear on that in my stories and have to go back and whittle away excess info in the final draft.<br /><br />JR. I have to fight with myself not to pay attention just to the few who I know get it and support me. we learn more from those who don't get it.<br /><br />Issa's Untidy Hut, it makes me feel good when the group members are thinking ahead, trying to figure things out. It means you've caught 'em.<br /><br />BernardL, it was and is. It's a good sign, I think.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-6677034479269783872010-09-04T07:30:35.216-05:002010-09-04T07:30:35.216-05:00I'm with you. The 'blurt' it all out s...I'm with you. The 'blurt' it all out school of thought doesn't work for me, either as a reader or a writer. You found out from your group how well your story hooks were working. That must have been a satisfying moment.BernardLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09722619048888613647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-2033437922864150382010-09-04T07:17:27.360-05:002010-09-04T07:17:27.360-05:00What a fine line that needs to be walked in fictio...What a fine line that needs to be walked in fiction! I agree, particularly with suspense fiction, the reactions of the people in your critique are <i>exactly</i> what you want. If the reader isn't asking questions in suspense, horror, & mystery, something is wrong. They won't be able to ask questions if they don't have enough information so, indeed, it is a question of just enough.<br /><br />Great rule, Charles.Issa's Untidy Huthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07352841590717991698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-40664717445410166482010-09-04T04:58:46.700-05:002010-09-04T04:58:46.700-05:00I've never done well in a group setting; Too m...I've never done well in a group setting; Too many critics and not enough listeners. My latest venue will be reading in those mom & pop coffee shops. I'll be studying the reactions of my listeners.JR's Thumbprintshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10479324326541901987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-28673224453334191292010-09-04T03:20:26.827-05:002010-09-04T03:20:26.827-05:00I agree with that rule. Though to be honest, I see...I agree with that rule. Though to be honest, I seem unable to give enough to begin with. It's because my world ideas are always somewhat puzzling and guess what, I need exposition and exposition...Harry Markovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09140305922494369576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-77579570064827879502010-09-03T23:29:17.976-05:002010-09-03T23:29:17.976-05:00yup... in cop/journalism jargon: info given on a &...yup... in cop/journalism jargon: info given on a 'need to know' basis<br /><br />some wag said: we get experience from making a lot of choices, some of them bad; works in gaining trust, toolaughingwolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08873675614347328116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-43484608970331333382010-09-03T20:21:25.510-05:002010-09-03T20:21:25.510-05:00Lots of food for thought here. I've been wonde...Lots of food for thought here. I've been wondering lately about how much and when to reveal information in my latest WIP. Thanks for giving me more to consider. :)RK Sterlinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01034917381901499281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-84283058314899518872010-09-03T17:45:38.177-05:002010-09-03T17:45:38.177-05:00I'm not in a critique group (it took me five y...I'm not in a critique group (it took me five years to build up enough confidence to trust just one person with critiquing my current project) but I do agree with the advice of withholding info until its required.G. B. Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09783331838434598963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-46185558883633100222010-09-03T16:59:24.623-05:002010-09-03T16:59:24.623-05:00Sounds like a high stakes game of poker. You don&...Sounds like a high stakes game of poker. You don't show your cards and keep raising the ante. And if they don't finish the hand and call they never get to see what your hole cards are.<br /><br />Back to the drawing board. (Poker Table)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03828426520214270655noreply@blogger.com