tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post8922532577812257971..comments2024-02-12T17:59:33.534-06:00Comments on RAZORED ZEN: Creating Characters: Part 1: Why Women are WeirdCharles Gramlichhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-12583865074150836752008-12-02T08:06:00.000-06:002008-12-02T08:06:00.000-06:00Angie, I'm with you. Sometimes I can't escape the...Angie, I'm with you. Sometimes I can't escape the irritation factor though. I try. I try.<BR/><BR/>J.L., that's a good point. Roles do define our actions more than we'd like to admit.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-54493110812256905222008-11-21T05:54:00.000-06:002008-11-21T05:54:00.000-06:00Charles,I'm catching up too.I concur with everyone...Charles,<BR/><BR/>I'm catching up too.<BR/><BR/>I concur with everyone who disagrees with the "no woman would do xyz" cliche.<BR/><BR/>I also think that when you have a female character who is a ruler or warrior, they will not behave like a typical soccer mom or other image of "proper" womanhood.<BR/><BR/>A successful warrior or ruler has to have a certain element of ruthlessness and iron will. If she didn't, she wouldn't survive and would therefore be a less believable character.J. L. Kruegerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03335606939334631954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-13252965697634510412008-11-20T08:07:00.000-06:002008-11-20T08:07:00.000-06:00I thought, but how could you say that I'm sexist i...<I>I thought, but how could you say that I'm sexist if 1 out of 40 stories features female bad guys?</I><BR/><BR/>You can't, of course, not with any legitimacy. But I've seen this happen too, where one or another -ism is flung at a writer based on a single story. Sometimes it obviously <I>is</I> whatever the -ism is, but just making the villain(s) a member of Group X doesn't mean a writer is oppressing that group. And that's true even if it's the writer's first story, much less if it's the only one out of forty where they do that. :P<BR/><BR/>To me, that sort of comment comes across as pretty stupid. I don't care what stupid people think, so I ignore those comments. Much better for the blood pressure.<BR/><BR/>AngieAngiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-159505235838878092008-11-20T08:02:00.000-06:002008-11-20T08:02:00.000-06:00Angie, I'm with you. I like characters who are of...Angie, I'm with you. I like characters who are off center. I also agree that you need to consider the "consitency" angle. Do all the writer's female characters show particular traits, for example? I remember how I'd been selling short horror stories for a while in which I <I>always</I> had male bad guys. I decided to write one with all female bad guys, and man was that story blasted for being sexist. I thought, but how could you say that I'm sexist if 1 out of 40 stories features female bad guys?Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-68335528848564851342008-11-19T10:30:00.000-06:002008-11-19T10:30:00.000-06:00I realize this is old (but I'm catching up!) and I...I realize this is old (but I'm catching up!) and I haven't read the 56 comments ahead of mine, but...<BR/><BR/>...my first impression is that the problem is more with those three readers in your critique group than with the female characterizations being criticized.<BR/><BR/>No, women are not all alike. There is no Right Way to write a female character, and my guess is that this little clot of women have built a wall around said little clot and have forgotten that there <I>are</I> women in the world who are little or nothing like them.<BR/><BR/>Sure, there are some vague generalities one can make about both genders. And yes, if I read some significant number of stories by a writer (all the stories about different characters, not linked in a series or whatever) and all the female (Black, Jewish, gay, blind, whatever) characters behaved pretty much alike <I>and</I> they were all way over on one end of the graph where the outliers dwell, then in that case I might speculate that the writer doesn't have a very good handle on that type of character.<BR/><BR/>Short of that, though, any internally consistent character can be made to work by a good writer.<BR/><BR/>And based on what you've said, I'll bet that if I wrote a story with a protag based very firmly on myself, my own personality and behavior and speech patterns, your three arbitors of femininity would insist that no women behave like that. [eyeroll] I'm nowhere near the center of the graph, no. But then, not everyone is. And some of the most interesting protags are the ones who <I>aren't</I> right there in the middle of the bell curve for their group(s).<BR/><BR/>AngieAngiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-74393724847537005882008-11-18T07:55:00.001-06:002008-11-18T07:55:00.001-06:00Cloudia, Bloom's Day. Lol. Kinda cool though.Sar...Cloudia, Bloom's Day. Lol. Kinda cool though.<BR/><BR/>Sarai, men do seem a bit easier to write.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-34219572989850743352008-11-18T07:55:00.000-06:002008-11-18T07:55:00.000-06:00Cloudia, Bloom's Day. Lol. Kinda cool though.Sar...Cloudia, Bloom's Day. Lol. Kinda cool though.<BR/><BR/>Sarai, men do seem a bit easier to write.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-91031696262739711862008-11-17T14:27:00.000-06:002008-11-17T14:27:00.000-06:00Can I just say that as a woman I have a hard time ...Can I just say that as a woman I have a hard time writing woman. We are all complicated and we all react in a different way to different situations. There is no one way with us LOL!<BR/>I think you should stick with your gut and if you think it works and another person said yeah I would react that way then go with it. Obiviously there is no way to please us all *wink*Saraihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00203551997160640352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-57304687182419429752008-11-17T13:22:00.000-06:002008-11-17T13:22:00.000-06:00Aloha, Charles:Ulysees, yikes! A literary acid-tr...Aloha, Charles:<BR/>Ulysees, yikes! A literary acid-trip indeed!<BR/>My first claim to being a writer?<BR/>Being born on 'Blooms Day' June 16th, the day that the book covers; a holiday of sorts among Joyce & writing fans....<BR/>Glad to know you folks are well armed too ;-) Best to Lovely Lana!Cloudiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05853753108637831069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-52574389595422592252008-11-17T12:50:00.000-06:002008-11-17T12:50:00.000-06:00Candy, I figured out something even better to do w...Candy, I figured out something even better to do with that character after the group's critque on her.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-10064006359827625172008-11-17T12:04:00.000-06:002008-11-17T12:04:00.000-06:00When writing a character that is meant to be sympa...When writing a character that is meant to be sympathetic, I suspect the trick is to create a character that will appeal to most of your readers. I ran into trouble writing romances because my heroines tended to be seen by many readers as too cold and masculine--true to a certain type of female, but unsympathetic to many. So I now write books about a kick-ass thriller heroine..<BR/><BR/>That need to have readers like your main character is also why I think that, on the mother-with-child-in-jeopardy, anytime three out of four (ahem, educated, strong female) readers say, "I'd hate a mother who did that," you know you're going to have trouble.cs harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13708705800818667923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-18486594573360519162008-11-17T11:11:00.000-06:002008-11-17T11:11:00.000-06:00I'm out in the country and well armed, my friend. ...I'm out in the country and well armed, my friend. And I know Lana will defend me. I'm safe as any man can be.<BR/><BR/>Don, I must confess to never having finished Ulysess. I started it. But man it isn't easy going.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Steve Malley, there are times when I'd be happy to know nothing of humanity. I'm not a big fan of the species particularly.<BR/><BR/>Jennifer, men are too. In fact, it's probably just the human race that is screwed up.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-74153874973881841332008-11-16T22:02:00.000-06:002008-11-16T22:02:00.000-06:00I backspaced over a LONG comment about this post. ...I backspaced over a LONG comment about this post. I struggled to make my point make any sense.<BR/><BR/>I agree. Women are weird.jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08547226679311827501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-87112559707841627282008-11-16T17:14:00.000-06:002008-11-16T17:14:00.000-06:00My rule of thumb: stay true to what little I've le...My rule of thumb: stay true to what little I've learned of the human experience. Judging by the mail I used to get, one in three thought I had no idea what I was talking about and didn't believe human beings EVER behaved this way or that, and two out of three felt I was speaking to the secret truths of their hearts. <BR/><BR/>They often sent pictures of cats. Lots of cats. <BR/><BR/>Women: the Tiny Dynamo often tells me I know nothing of humanity and that what I'm saying is completely impossible. She usually says this when I'm reading her something out of the newspaper. Whatchagunnado?Steve Malleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17561234111786788616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-21436889782791606302008-11-16T14:11:00.000-06:002008-11-16T14:11:00.000-06:00Charles:You know, this is what is beautiful about ...Charles:<BR/><BR/>You know, this is what is beautiful about blogging. A great, great post with an excellent question. It is the composite of what everyone said that seems as close to the truth as anyone will ever get. I just loved reading everyone's response.<BR/><BR/>One sort of side thought - the last chapter of <I>Ulysses</I>, the Molly Bloom chapter, has always been held up as a sort of model of men writing about women, or in that case, writing <I>as</I> a woman, in the first person. I thought it was great and kind of feel it might have a thing or two to impart on the topic, as a sort of learning tool.<BR/><BR/>DonIssa's Untidy Huthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07352841590717991698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-36841031593690310922008-11-15T22:57:00.000-06:002008-11-15T22:57:00.000-06:00Just thought I'd check back in to see if they'd ly...Just thought I'd check back in to see if they'd lynched you or not.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14546882686381428986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-83022072444936876792008-11-15T22:55:00.000-06:002008-11-15T22:55:00.000-06:00JR, good question. I'm not pursuing it either. Bu...JR, good question. I'm not pursuing it either. But I always heard that many primitive tribes turned their captives over to the women for punishment. Eeek!<BR/><BR/>Erik, I've learned to do so as well. Sometimes the comments are helpful, othertimes not.<BR/><BR/>Julie, good point. People bring their own biases to the operation and have a hard time seeing beyond those.<BR/><BR/>Writtenwyrd, I do wonder about the use of critique groups sometimes for just that reason. But at times I've had them catch me in a serious error that I'm glad didn't get out to the public. Gotta take the good with the bad, I guess.<BR/><BR/>Georgie B, I appreciate your comments. Thanks for stopping by. Love the avatar.<BR/><BR/>Virginia lady, I think there is an element of that definitely. As soon as we see a reader writing from "our" perspective we get a bit defensive and standoffish. I remember the first time I got hit too. Pretty stunning.<BR/><BR/>Scott, I'm fortunate in that Lana is usually pretty straightforward. I understand her; that makes her easy to live with.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-83070160980259565282008-11-15T19:51:00.000-06:002008-11-15T19:51:00.000-06:00Charles, I remember a friend of mine saying he th...Charles,<BR/><BR/> I remember a friend of mine saying he thought Robert Jordan's female characters in his 'Wheel of Time' series were realistically written because they were so aggrivating. I'm not surewhat that says about him or jordan, but here you go. <BR/><BR/> I haven't writen any ficton in years, but I would think that women are just like men in that no two are exactly the same, and should be written as such. I will say that I have given up on trying to figure out any real-life women a long time ago. :)Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09726570487056061877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-82897765867765215142008-11-15T18:56:00.000-06:002008-11-15T18:56:00.000-06:00It's entirely possible that the criticism stems mo...It's entirely possible that the criticism stems more from a subtle prejudice that people have about writers writing the view point of the opposite sex. For years men have had to write with a woman's name in order to sell romance, readers would automatically look for ways to criticize even if nothing is wrong.<BR/><BR/>Everyone reacts to different situations differently and more importantly, most don't have a clue how they would really react.<BR/><BR/>I've been trained with self-defense techniques, but the first time I was actually hit by someone I was so shocked I just stood there and stared for a moment. Never would have imagined that. Not in a million years. I grew up wrestling with older brothers so it's not like I was some little flower. But I was so stunned and surprised that someone would actually hit me in a fight, I was frozen for a bit. <BR/><BR/>It's hard to predict how someone would react, but usually we like give characters the best reactions possible for them-at least as a reader. As a writer, the more difficult the situation, often is the better choice.Virginia Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16641613214603672322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-8808522395326784582008-11-15T15:55:00.000-06:002008-11-15T15:55:00.000-06:00por nada, amigo :)por nada, amigo :)laughingwolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08873675614347328116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-26898234818844876662008-11-15T14:22:00.000-06:002008-11-15T14:22:00.000-06:00Howdy.Don't have really have anything to say about...Howdy.<BR/><BR/>Don't have really have anything to say about this post other than the people are giving some excellent feedback.<BR/><BR/>Was curious about your blog after seeing your thoughtful comments elsewhere, so I thought I would stop by to take a look.<BR/><BR/>Glad I did.G. B. Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09783331838434598963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-24675384592080881192008-11-15T07:47:00.000-06:002008-11-15T07:47:00.000-06:00You've put your finger on it: we're totally differ...You've put your finger on it: we're totally different yet symbiotic species who comingle in order to procreate! (But don't tell anybody or the religious right will be knocking on your door...)<BR/><BR/>Honestly, the way many people do not recognize their own assumptions and biases when it comes to gender and critiquing writing! I have had similar experiences, not over gender behavior specifically, but it's like people get overly picky about stuff. Personally, I like a hard-nosed woman character as much as a man. Assuming I could tell one was female by occasional differences, it shouldn't matter.<BR/><BR/>I'm waiting for crits regarding my current wip because half the soldiers are women, and they act just like the men because it's what these soldiers do. But now I think I'll consider seeing if I can addin in some feminity (whatever that is, cuz I'm a gal and I'm not clear on the definition!).writtenwyrddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02280711822302493122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-78963922099561870912008-11-15T06:44:00.000-06:002008-11-15T06:44:00.000-06:00yeah, good post. Doesn't it boil down to the fact ...yeah, good post. Doesn't it boil down to the fact female stereotypes in society are on a broad spectrum nowadays - and each separate group perceives their own as THE stereotype. (Having moved around, I can vouch for this aka having been brought up in a matriarchal fishing community, and living most of my life in patriarchal middle class suburbia for eg.) Translate either of these into fiction and inevitably one group would have a problem recognizing itself in the reactions of the other...?<BR/><BR/>Guess that's why people eventually end up reading what they identify with.virtualjourneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10653404509129835617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-70781781131890050952008-11-15T01:43:00.000-06:002008-11-15T01:43:00.000-06:00I take most writing group comments and indeed most...I take most writing group comments and indeed most comments with a grain of salt and a dash of holy water. Saboteurs!Erik Donald Francehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02332500850365598564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-695293872546826542008-11-14T23:13:00.000-06:002008-11-14T23:13:00.000-06:00Who can hold a grudge longer? Man or woman? I do...Who can hold a grudge longer? Man or woman? I don't dare answer that question. Best not to argue on this topic. As long as you're comfortable with your characterization, then trust your judgement.JR's Thumbprintshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10479324326541901987noreply@blogger.com