tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post5687646406087229813..comments2024-02-12T17:59:33.534-06:00Comments on RAZORED ZEN: Recent ReadsCharles Gramlichhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-70792486493760586582008-12-02T08:04:00.000-06:002008-12-02T08:04:00.000-06:00Rachel, Even Dawkins agrees that agnosticism is th...Rachel, Even Dawkins agrees that agnosticism is the logical approach.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-12995882825564912512008-11-29T20:20:00.000-06:002008-11-29T20:20:00.000-06:00My dad used to be an atheist, until he realized th...My dad used to be an atheist, until he realized that the atheists he was reading and hanging out with were just as intent at proselytizing their beliefs as anyone else. He decided to opt for being an agnostic, instead.Rachel V. Olivierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08993034871233904955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-87279956214124202982008-11-25T08:47:00.000-06:002008-11-25T08:47:00.000-06:00Sidney, it'll get to you one way or the other.Mila...Sidney, it'll get to you one way or the other.<BR/><BR/>Miladysa, I enjoyed them both.<BR/><BR/>Jennifer, I haven't read that one. I have some kind of resistence to reading popular books.<BR/><BR/>Livingsword, thanks for visiting. The God of the Bible is definitely a complex entity.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-39567373205568646082008-11-23T20:47:00.000-06:002008-11-23T20:47:00.000-06:00Hi Charles…..Interesting article…The Bible does ha...Hi Charles…..<BR/><BR/>Interesting article…<BR/><BR/>The Bible does have poetic and metaphorical sections and it also has literal sections…<BR/><BR/>As for following rules in Ecclesiastes or the Levitical code followers of Jesus are not bound by such rules or laws…however if people are trying to get to God thru rules, being “good” or religious they are bound by them. These Laws are impossible to perfectly follow and that is part of their purpose.<BR/><BR/>The Law acts as a teacher, billboards pointing to our inability to have relationship with God thru following religion and thru trying to be good. The Law points us to our sin and inability to draw near to God thru such religion.<BR/><BR/>However the good news is God has chosen to draw near to us thru Jesus and we can come to God thru grace a free unearnable undeserved gift but as it is a gift we must turn from ourselves trying to be good or religious and trust the Giver of the gift to receive this gift of relationship with God… <BR/><BR/>Dawkins book similarly to Hitchens book (both of which I have read) often stand up straw men and knock them down and many times are extraordinarily misinformed on the Bible….The God they attack is most often not at all like the God of the Bible…Livingswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10619320099363943460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-32792768668697724932008-11-23T09:59:00.000-06:002008-11-23T09:59:00.000-06:00I HAVE PICKED UP A BOOK AGAIN!!!!It's Twilight, bu...I HAVE PICKED UP A BOOK AGAIN!!!!<BR/><BR/>It's Twilight, but Hey! I reading!<BR/><BR/>For some reason, I just had to share that :)<BR/><BR/>Have a pleasant Sunday.jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08547226679311827501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-89194685240570784452008-11-22T17:02:00.000-06:002008-11-22T17:02:00.000-06:00The Year of Living Biblically - I think I am going...The Year of Living Biblically - I think I am going to give this and the poems a go.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the recommendations :DMiladysahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08065128196666157541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-26432568926229444402008-11-21T20:54:00.000-06:002008-11-21T20:54:00.000-06:00My co-worker has been reading that. I guess I ough...My co-worker has been reading that. I guess I ought to give that a look.Sidneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16284680909152676159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-72421905354346171592008-11-21T11:22:00.000-06:002008-11-21T11:22:00.000-06:00Kimberly, this sounds somewhat like spam posting, ...Kimberly, this sounds somewhat like spam posting, but I always link to those who visit me regularly. And I visit them as well.<BR/><BR/>Sam, learning about all the different types of religion certainly seems to make the idea of "one" religion being right while all others are wrong, to be rather hard to swallow.<BR/><BR/>Mary Witzl, I really don't like begin preached "at." I used to have enjoy visiting with the Jehovah's Witnesses that came to see us when I was growing up. We'd play chess and discuss all manner of religious isseus. I never converted them, or was converted by them, but I rather enjoyed their company.<BR/><BR/>J.L., that's largely why I tell people that, to me, religion is a matter of faith and not science and it's not terribly useful to try to connect them. Nor do I find them incompatable for a full life.<BR/><BR/>Maalie, he pretty much equates the belief in God with belief in the tooth fairy, although he does have a seven point scale, with 7 as absolute knowledge there is no God, and he puts himself at 6.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-45149813166959157752008-11-21T09:02:00.000-06:002008-11-21T09:02:00.000-06:00I am enjoying the continuing discussion.> And I...I am enjoying the continuing discussion.<BR/><BR/>> <I>And I'm sure he never says science proves that God doesn't exist.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree with that. He does however say that the probability of God existing is so low as to be out of the frame for consideration (words to that effect).Maaliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13444125754967223180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-52924257258263538882008-11-21T06:13:00.000-06:002008-11-21T06:13:00.000-06:00Charles,Good list. My eldest daughter who's going...Charles,<BR/><BR/>Good list. My eldest daughter who's going through the strident athiest phase read "The God Delusion" to get ammo for her arguments.<BR/><BR/>She was shocked when she tried some at the dinner table and I could logically counter every argument.<BR/><BR/>I think Ghengis Khan's take on religion was best: Never interfere with someone's religious beliefs.<BR/><BR/>Almost caught up.J. L. Kruegerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03335606939334631954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-35549536296449053232008-11-21T06:12:00.000-06:002008-11-21T06:12:00.000-06:00I've met just as many gung-ho evangelist atheists ...I've met just as many gung-ho evangelist atheists as I have Bible-thumping missionaries. Both groups tire me out. <BR/><BR/>My mother used to have fun with the evangelists who came to our door. She knew the Bible better than most of them and she was familiar with all their arguments, but none of them could do what SHE could -- argue persuasively and logically. I wonder if she ever converted anyone...Mary Witzlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10041339749785242409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-39634866254851358362008-11-21T04:30:00.000-06:002008-11-21T04:30:00.000-06:00It's interesting to compare Dawkins to Jacobs - I ...It's interesting to compare Dawkins to Jacobs - I suppose it's easier in our society to defend a religious viewpoint with the weight of moral 'right' behind you.<BR/>However, I find it harder and harder to believe in God, despite (or maybe because of?) all the cutesy e-mails I get from my cousin the religious nut.Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05943062466398436785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-7480040503204794322008-11-20T15:24:00.000-06:002008-11-20T15:24:00.000-06:00I would love for your blog to be a part of blog4re...I would love for your blog to be a part of blog4reel.com – the world’s first blog-to-film competition. It’s free! All u do is link this blog to blog4reel.com for a chance to win 2,000! <BR/><BR/>– Kimberly (co-creator)Kimberly A. Sutahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00986908758566287972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-15182633160728821102008-11-20T12:23:00.000-06:002008-11-20T12:23:00.000-06:00Heff, from my studies, though there are some histo...Heff, from my studies, though there are some historical things that happened and are recorded in the Bible, though often not in exact detail, most of the Bible does seem metaphorical. <BR/><BR/>Jack, I have been too, and it's only lately that I feel in a position to do so. I wish it was easier to talk about but people get very emotional sometimes.<BR/><BR/>Crazycath, I didn't think you were trying to be controversial. I always appreciate your input. It's always fair and balanced.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-54139531566881778822008-11-20T10:28:00.000-06:002008-11-20T10:28:00.000-06:00Charles, this is such a well balanced debate and I...Charles, this is such a well balanced debate and I have "enjoyed" (if that is the right word) every last bit of it. Please don't think I was trying to be controversial - I was actually trying to explain a standpoint in as few words as possible without preaching, and failed! I'm not going to even try to explain... I know what I mean.<BR/>But I did want to say that I really do take your point and I am glad that you review these books. They're good reviews.Cathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01247084030899971480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-81381856547148610992008-11-20T09:34:00.000-06:002008-11-20T09:34:00.000-06:00Always surrounded by religion and the religious I'...Always surrounded by religion and the religious I've always been afraid to talk about religion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-76698129297751653132008-11-20T08:50:00.000-06:002008-11-20T08:50:00.000-06:00I personally think the Bible IS one huge metaphor....I personally think the Bible IS one huge metaphor. Ok, I'll stop right there.Heffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13396114362826135207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-23855279870049849782008-11-20T07:50:00.000-06:002008-11-20T07:50:00.000-06:00Barbara Martin, I agree. It's important for a wri...Barbara Martin, I agree. It's important for a writer to have a wide basis of input so that what comes out is not too narrow.<BR/><BR/>Erik, a macrobiotic dinner? That sounds like some kind of unpleasant medical experiment. ;)<BR/><BR/>Jon, well, it wasn't actually his comments about religious believers that made him seem arrogant to me. It was comments about what "colleges" certain people have gone to, or whether they could really be a "doctor." But different folks read texts differently. I know you're right about his ranking thing, and how he puts himself at a 6 rather than a 7. And I'm glad to see him do that because he knows, ultimately, he doesn't have proof one way or another. I'd never say he claims to "disprove" God using science. I haven't finished the book yet but so far his science consists of probablities (without any actually calculations given) and correlations. There's nothing wrong with probabilities and correlations, but they aren't particularly strong bits of evidence for his position.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-17098887014200275972008-11-20T07:30:00.000-06:002008-11-20T07:30:00.000-06:00Hi Charles -I just don't get that feeling of arrog...Hi Charles -<BR/><BR/>I just don't get that feeling of arrogance when I read him. I guess thats a subjective thing and we're going to have to agree to disagree ;-)<BR/><BR/>He does attack people who try to use science to deny evolution but thats becase he's an expert in exactly that area.<BR/><BR/>Recently his website was banned in Turkey because he "insulted" the Turkish author of a creationist textbook... the book included a picture of an angler's home made fly claiming it was a modern species identical to primeval insects caught in amber and proved that no evolution had occurred... its very difficult to review that sort of mistake without sounding superior ;-)<BR/><BR/>And I'm sure he never says science proves that God doesn't exist. He just says that science provides better explanations for natural phenomena and therefore its unlikely that God exists.<BR/><BR/>Hey - I looked up Karen Armstrong and we were born in small towns 25 miles apart!<BR/><BR/>- JonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-30316779504288030802008-11-19T23:27:00.000-06:002008-11-19T23:27:00.000-06:00The only time I ever wore all white was for the ad...The only time I ever wore all white was for the adult Catholic conversion process, and that was strange.<BR/><BR/>I usually wear black ;-><BR/><BR/>Today I tried a macrobiotic diner. It had Biblical bread that wasn't bad, but afterwards I thought, "Where's the beef?" And was it kosher? What would Jesus do?Erik Donald Francehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02332500850365598564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-30690866837580412682008-11-19T18:29:00.000-06:002008-11-19T18:29:00.000-06:00Reading different types of books whether non-ficti...Reading different types of books whether non-fiction or genres in fiction helps a writer's muse. Which is why I read other books than in the genre I write. I agree with you Charles, that it provides for new ideas and possible conflicts in a different situation.Barbara Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00610140328527165017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-7167196324923544762008-11-19T15:42:00.000-06:002008-11-19T15:42:00.000-06:00Maalie, I agree, clinical records would be a nice ...Maalie, I agree, clinical records would be a nice thing to have. Thanks for visiting and commenting.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-91557111927223392242008-11-19T15:33:00.000-06:002008-11-19T15:33:00.000-06:00> if you had to choose between two highly skill...> <I>if you had to choose between two highly skilled doctors....which would you chose?</I><BR/><BR/>I think I should ask to see their clinical records. If there were no difference between them, then I wouldn't care.<BR/><BR/>But I accept your point about the straw-man. Always worth a try ;-)Maaliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13444125754967223180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-30159293350702317072008-11-19T15:26:00.000-06:002008-11-19T15:26:00.000-06:00Chris Eldin, I’ve certainly been enjoying them.Wri...Chris Eldin, I’ve certainly been enjoying them.<BR/><BR/>Writtenwyrd, most scientists I know are clear on the point that science really has nothing to say pro or con about the existence of God. It’s a different way of considering the world. It certainly seems a waste of time to try and consider the existence of God from a scientific point of view. There are answerable questions out there.<BR/><BR/>Vesper, I agree that all the books out there today on religion and science have to be read with an open mind. I don’t know if any of us can completely escape our preconceived ideas.<BR/><BR/>Jennifer, I’m a bookaholic. No way I could go through a day without picking up a book.<BR/><BR/>Merisi, I haven’t been to Bookpuddle. I’ll have to check it out.<BR/><BR/>Jon, I’m sure he’s probably a perfectly nice guy in person. And he makes plenty of good points. But there is a subtext in the book clearly that suggests that people who aren’t elite scientists or from elite schools are just not that bright. I’d call that arrogant. Plus, to me it just seems rather silly to try to convert people under any circumstance. Let people think independtly. <BR/><BR/>CrazyCath, hum, I never thought taking the Bible literally had to do with modern or current laws. I thought it meant word for word as literally written in the Bible itself. I try to be balanced and I always keep an open mind when I read, although it’s tough to hold to that stance at times.<BR/><BR/>X. Dell, I thought the Jacobs book was really fun as well as educational. The Dawkins book is definitely engaging, but I’ve found myself irritated quite frequently, which is not in itself a bad thing. I can enjoy a good recreational anger.<BR/><BR/>Sarah Hina, I haven’t read Sam Harris or Karen Armstrong, though I’m going to look up stuff about them after I finish my comments. Thanks for the heads up.<BR/><BR/>Maalie, I wondered how long it would be before someone oversimplified my point. First, of course, it’s about being right, partially right, partially wrong, wrong, arrogant, reasonable, rational, emotional, and many other things. There’s a reason why the debate is a complex one. Second, the fact of Dawkins’ arrogance has nothing to do with whether I would accept his specific concepts or not. It’s simply a statement based on his words in the book. As for your “to put it this way” question, surely you understand that you’ve loaded that question in your favor by setting up a “straw-man” argument, and thus made it meaningless?<BR/><BR/>To put it this way, if you had to choose between two highly skilled doctors to operate on you, one so arrogant that he couldn’t imagine himself making a mistake, and another who is humble enough to worry every day that he might make a mistake when he has someone’s life in his hands, which would you chose?Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-16156956944076686292008-11-19T14:45:00.000-06:002008-11-19T14:45:00.000-06:00> my main problem with Dawkins so far is his ar...> <I>my main problem with Dawkins so far is his arrogance.</I><BR/><BR/>I wondered how far down I would have to come before I found the word 'arrogant'.<BR/><BR/>The question is surely: "Is he <I>right</I>?, not "is he arrogant?".<BR/><BR/>To dismiss his case because of his arrogance amounts to no more than an <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem" REL="nofollow"><I>ad hominem</I></A> attack, and that is no argument at all.<BR/><BR/>Put it this way, would you rather be operated on by a surgeon who was a master in his profession, though regarded by some as arrogant; or by a bumbling novice who demonstrated pleasant humility?Maaliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13444125754967223180noreply@blogger.com