tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post5557796346798112075..comments2024-02-12T17:59:33.534-06:00Comments on RAZORED ZEN: How Much Violence is Too Much?Charles Gramlichhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-27324282828643580912009-03-01T01:06:00.000-06:002009-03-01T01:06:00.000-06:00Mary Witzl, that's ridiculous for a six year old t...Mary Witzl, that's ridiculous for a six year old to see Texas Chainsaw massacre. I don't mind a fair amount of violence in fiction. It's when I hear about it in real life that I get depressed.<BR/><BR/>JR, yes, in the Edge series there seems a fair amount of having characters do what they seemingly wouldn't do in order to show violence. That particularly bothers me.<BR/><BR/>Mimi Lenox, Even movies that I don't think will have a lot of violence in them end up having a lot. I watched The Changeling the other night. It was a very good movie but the violence was hard to take.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-60643475873750598332009-02-28T13:16:00.000-06:002009-02-28T13:16:00.000-06:00I prefer not to read books that I know will be vio...I prefer not to read books that I know will be violent laced, or movies for that matter...leaves my movie-watching at a standstill in this day and age....but I agree that violence or sex in print just for shock value (??) is worthless. If it doesn't advance the plot or have a point then what is the point?Mimi Lenoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01616635898420835541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-25463793767107347132009-02-28T05:14:00.000-06:002009-02-28T05:14:00.000-06:00It seems to me that a book can have enough violenc...It seems to me that a book can have enough violence to fill page 1 through the ending; the key issue (which you've already made) is that it HAS TO BE RELEVANT to the story, or at least relevant to the character's make-up. To have women running into the open for the sake of getting savagely beaten doesn't work for me either, unless of course, the writer gets inside their heads and makes it feel like they should run.JR's Thumbprintshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10479324326541901987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-30773126025997360272009-02-27T12:12:00.000-06:002009-02-27T12:12:00.000-06:00If there is violence in a book, it had damn well b...If there is violence in a book, it had damn well better be written really well, or I won't read it. I find graphic depictions of horrible violence just depress me no end. I never feel titillated or invigorated or in any way entertained.<BR/><BR/>My daughter babysat for a 6-year-old the other day who clamored to see Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Her mother said it was okay for her to see it. I was thrilled that my daughter was shocked and upset by this.Mary Witzlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06458299046574564155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-36843241080496438712009-02-27T10:39:00.000-06:002009-02-27T10:39:00.000-06:00Shauna Roberts, yes, it’s probably that too. For ...Shauna Roberts, yes, it’s probably that too. For many of us when we’re young, violence is an abstract sort of thing, but as we age it touches us and we find it much less abstract, and therefore it hits closer to home.<BR/><BR/> steve on the slow train, most of the violence imagined in fiction has probably happened in real life before. And certainly if you’re going to show a war, or a riot, then you have to have enough violence to indicate what the situation was really like. You can’t make it seem like choir practice.<BR/><BR/> ARCHAVIST, I ordered one of his books through Book Mooch. I’ll comment here once I get to read it. I see he writes horror fiction, though, which can generally sustain a higher level of violence than westerns. At least to me. I see that his books are most available in England.<BR/><BR/> benjibopper, I agree, and I also worry somewhat about the Desensitization affect as well.<BR/><BR/> writtenwyrdd, I have that happen more than I’d like. Frustrating. I never cared much for gore splatter movies. I realize that I like suspense very much. The first Saw movie was certainly graphic, but I have to say I liked that movie very much because the violence fit the story. The later ones in that series are not as strong as stories, I don’t think.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-2545076118805436152009-02-27T09:36:00.000-06:002009-02-27T09:36:00.000-06:00Geez, I comment and it gets lost in cyberspace. To...Geez, I comment and it gets lost in cyberspace. <BR/><BR/>To rehash, I'm not a big violence fan despite my addiction to paranormal urban fantasies and vampire fiction. I particularly dislike the splattering of blood graphically all over the silver screen a la Saw, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and the like.<BR/><BR/>In fiction, I still dislike the bloody stuff if it's normal bloody stuff like a serial killer thriller that's constantly in old blood-and-gut's head.writtenwyrddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02280711822302493122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-41918298735472030752009-02-27T06:39:00.000-06:002009-02-27T06:39:00.000-06:00i happen to be reading a book right now (endgame b...i happen to be reading a book right now (endgame by derrick jensen) that dedicates a lot of print to defending violence - not its portrayal but its use in defense of the land and life, against civilization itself, which is destroying the land and life, including people. that i can stomach. but the hacking off of women's breasts for entertainment truly disgusts me. i don't think violence, or its portrayal, is inherently wrong. it depends i guess on its purpose. i think most people would resort to violence in defense of what they hold dear. its the violence that's used to shock, terrorize, and control that really disgusts me.Chris Benjaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00402945887045545024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-54072088781520160642009-02-27T03:21:00.000-06:002009-02-27T03:21:00.000-06:00Charles - Hutson will really gross you out.Charles - Hutson will really gross you out.Gary Dobbs/Jack Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10935686140719743351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-89162676774498385592009-02-27T01:00:00.000-06:002009-02-27T01:00:00.000-06:00I'm with Shauna. I'd stop reading a book with exc...I'm with Shauna. I'd stop reading a book with excessive violence, but probably not one with too much sex, unless that sex is exploitative.<BR/><BR/>Chris Gruber makes a point about historical fiction, though the Fort Dearborn Massacre has a lot of conflicting accounts. From what I've read, about 50 people were killed, while those captured were sold to the British, who released them. But the details, such as whether the Miami participated in the killing, are not always clear. If you're writing about it, you've got to compare the various accounts, and make a considered judgment about what to put into your account. <BR/><BR/>I've run into the same problem writing about Chicago during the last week of August, 1968, when there were scores of reporters and cameras. I have to write about violence, though I do it from the point of view either of the victim or a sympathetic bystander.<BR/><BR/>I have to pick and choose facts--were bags of feces thrown from the Conrad Hilton onto the police? They don't show up on film, so I'm not including that allegation in my narrative. But I can't write a novel set in Chicago '68 without writing violence. I don't want it to become a celebration of violence. <BR/><BR/>And speaking of Chicago, '68, Walking Man, do you happen to have a source for that Hoffman quote? It's a good one, but a lot of the best quotes are ones that have been modified over the years.steve on the slow trainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18257811143869341854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-63465100404167294852009-02-27T00:42:00.000-06:002009-02-27T00:42:00.000-06:00When I was younger I enjoyed watching graphic horr...<EM>When I was younger I enjoyed watching graphic horror movies sometimes for what I called the “coolness” factor.....Now that I’ve seen a lot of such movies I’m less enamored of that.....</EM><BR/><BR/>The other thing about being older is that the violence feels more personal. We've lived through 9-11, Katrina, friends or relatives getting butchered as part of their cancer treatment, friends or relatives being raped, friends or relatives dying in car crashes, etc. Violence on the screen or page too easily conjures up memories of these terrible events.Shauna Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03871768714926149114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-36348578359998966952009-02-26T21:34:00.000-06:002009-02-26T21:34:00.000-06:00jennifer, violence as a trope is certainly interes...jennifer, violence as a trope is certainly interesting. Once I started reading horror fiction in my early 20s I really became interested in its use in fiction. I do think it’s possible to go too far, but there are times for me when the gore is not only OK but seems to be needed to properly produce an effect.<BR/><BR/> J. L. Krueger, yes, if you’re doing good against evil, as often occurs in fantasy, you definitely need to show that the evil can be evil and not just a pest. You’re right, though, the violence doesn’t necessarily have to be graphic. <BR/><BR/> ARCHAVIST, Yes, there is definitely a lot of black humor, some of which works and some of which doesn’t. I definitely think that takes some of the ‘edge’ off so to speak. I’ve never seen Django. I haven’t read Huston either but I think I’m going to look at one of his books.<BR/><BR/> pattinase (abbott), there are certain places, like child in danger, that I don’t want to go to either. On the other hand, I don’t mind violence perpetrated against adults, especially adult males that much. I thought the violence in Alien and Aliens for example added to the story.<BR/><BR/> Sidney, I’ve actually tried to pick up some of those Fox novels but have only gotten one. Some were also written by Ken Bulmer, a writer I collect. <BR/><BR/> Lover of Life, thanks for dropping by. I hope you found something interesting. I’ve gotten to where I enjoy more happier endings as I’ve gotten older. The breast hacking thing bothered me, but it particularly bothered me when it happened in two books in a row.<BR/><BR/> David Cranmer, I think that’s the key. When I was younger I enjoyed watching graphic horror movies sometimes for what I called the “coolness” factor. It was just an appreciation of a certain visualization that I found interesting or that tweaked my imagination. Now that I’ve seen a lot of such movies I’m less enamored of that, and experience it less, of course.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-12524034070431164722009-02-26T19:59:00.000-06:002009-02-26T19:59:00.000-06:00If it's part of the plot and moves the story forwa...If it's part of the plot and moves the story forward then I'm ok with it.David Cranmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04749857752139212888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-26983236336232922622009-02-26T19:48:00.000-06:002009-02-26T19:48:00.000-06:00Hi - Just noticed your blog reply on majority of t...Hi - Just noticed your blog reply on majority of two. I, too, am interested in writing and love to talk about it. As for violence, I am less and less apt to read violent books as I get older. Hacking of women's breasts would have me put the book down and move on to something else. My husband and I do, however, like sci fi movies, which do have violence. But it's not the same, for me, with monsters vs. breast hackers. Breast hackers are real and they are really really scary.Nancyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13178290697351352495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-17954724908148750432009-02-26T19:40:00.000-06:002009-02-26T19:40:00.000-06:00Hey, Apparently George G. Gillman was a pseudonym ...Hey, Apparently George G. Gillman was a pseudonym of Terry Harknett http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/terry-harknett/<BR/><BR/>I had a couple of the Fox novels he wrote under the name Adam Hardy. That series was Edge at sea.Sidneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16284680909152676159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-50152265037855646982009-02-26T15:00:00.000-06:002009-02-26T15:00:00.000-06:00I have a pretty low threshold. I walked out of Let...I have a pretty low threshold. I walked out of Lethal Weapon 1 when Danny Glover's daughter is in jeopardy and I certainly closed my eyes during The Wrestler a lot. I can't stand torture; can't stand sadism; can't stand children in jeorpardy. So I guess even a little is too much for me.pattinase (abbott)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02916037185235335846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-23592354310118185582009-02-26T14:57:00.000-06:002009-02-26T14:57:00.000-06:00RE CRUSHED - Shaun Hutson makes the Gilman books l...RE CRUSHED - Shaun Hutson makes the Gilman books look like child's play. Now that's violent - anyone ever read Slugs?Gary Dobbs/Jack Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10935686140719743351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-49520918101342203492009-02-26T14:55:00.000-06:002009-02-26T14:55:00.000-06:00Charles - I know where you're coming from. I even ...Charles - I know where you're coming from. I even agree to a point and I'm an Edge nut. I wince sometimes when I read the violent passages, but most of it is punctuated with a sick humour. In fact George Gilman, AKA Terry Harknett said he winced himself at the amount of violence the publishers wanted him to put in and the only way he could do it was the use the humour.<BR/><BR/>I don't know if you've seen the western Django but I liken the Edge series too that - the violence is so extereme that it becomes almost comedy.<BR/><BR/>Mind you Terry is a fine writer and some of the Edge books show a depth of character that increased as the books went on.<BR/><BR/>Try Apache Death - it's just as violent but the story moves at supersonic speed. Aother Gilman series Adam Steele is slightly less violent and may appeal more to your tastes.Gary Dobbs/Jack Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10935686140719743351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-80294212775962391672009-02-26T12:10:00.000-06:002009-02-26T12:10:00.000-06:00The violence depends upon the context and its rela...The violence depends upon the context and its relationship to the story. It has to help move the story. In some cases it helps the reader understand why certain characters are the way they are. However, I don't think the violence needs to always be graphic. In many fantasy novels the worlds in which the story is set are violent places, so violence usually must be part of the story.J. L. Kruegerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03335606939334631954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-15746993061430596042009-02-26T10:55:00.000-06:002009-02-26T10:55:00.000-06:00I know before I even write this I am going to stum...I know before I even write this I am going to stumble all over the place with this comment.<BR/><BR/>Violence for the sake of intrigue is cool (to me). But not in your face graphic violence. Hints that make me think "Does that mean what I think it means?" works best for me as a reader. I don't have to have every gory detail to be satisfied with the story. I like stories about people and relationships and personalities. So if something violent happened that made the characters stronger, or more dysfunctional, or bitter, or even more interesting - I get it.<BR/><BR/>But I am like Lana in that the real world offers enough violence. Books are a perfect form of escapism - a place to feel without being touched personally. A vehicle to make me think without demanding action.<BR/><BR/>And speaking of making me think... your blog certainly has a way of doing just that.jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08547226679311827501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-39785139857500318182009-02-26T10:31:00.000-06:002009-02-26T10:31:00.000-06:00X. Dell, I'm sure that 99 percent of the folks who...X. Dell, I'm sure that 99 percent of the folks who read reams of graphic violence are probably safe to be around, as you say. Just like most people who read porn aren't going to rape someone. I'm a firm believer in being able to do your own thing as long as you don't hurt anyone else, so I have no real moral problem with ultraviolence or porn. It's more of a personal distaste. A well thought out comment, for sure.<BR/><BR/>Barbara Martin, I can actually handle violence better than sex in general reading, I think. The reason for me is that in genre fiction there usually needs to be some violence, although it can be implied rather than described. But often times the sex really does seem more gratutious. It's a fine line, of course.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-91574116962724721872009-02-26T00:46:00.000-06:002009-02-26T00:46:00.000-06:00My viewpoint follows those of Shauna and CS Harris...My viewpoint follows those of Shauna and CS Harris. Repeated violence in a book tends to make me toss it in the garbage, while making a mental note never to read another book of that 'sick puppy' again. As to gratuitous sex, if I'm planning on reading erotica that's one thing, but to find it in a novel can be disconcerting. It would be better for authors to infer violence and/or sex and move on with the story.Barbara Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00610140328527165017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-35748223891453464362009-02-25T23:49:00.000-06:002009-02-25T23:49:00.000-06:00Like you, I think the term 'gratuitous' is somewha...Like you, I think the term 'gratuitous' is somewhat overused. To be honest, violence of this nature strikes me more as masturbatory. In other words, it's there for the sake of getting the reader off. Kinda like what we nowadays call 'war porn.'<BR/><BR/>I was watching a show on cable a few days back where they measured the sexual response of killers and rapists to two different sets of stimuli: (1) purely sexual, and (2) graphically violent. According to this study, violent men exhibited a far greater sexual response to the violence. <BR/><BR/>Of course, you know far more about this stuff than I and the TV show did. But I can only think of one reason to put in that much violence--like the sex in a stag film, it's its own end. The story is simply the means by which to get to the end. True, the books in this series are probably read by a wider segment of the population than simply murderers and rapists. But the thing is that people don't necessarily act on impulse, compulsion or fantasy. In fact, I would suspect that the vast majority of this target audience aren't fellons, and wouldn't conceive of harming another person. At the same time, that wouldn't necessarily stop them from getting excited over violence.X. Dellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17561609651507566271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-5910322206332664152009-02-25T22:25:00.000-06:002009-02-25T22:25:00.000-06:00Cloudia, it's like porn I guess. We all know it w...Cloudia, it's like porn I guess. We all know it when we see it, although we don't all have the same definitions of it.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-32258618583156585662009-02-25T22:24:00.000-06:002009-02-25T22:24:00.000-06:00Angie, good point about the gratuitous puppy scene...Angie, good point about the gratuitous puppy scene. That’s exactly right, although I never really thought of it that way.<BR/><BR/> Shauna Roberts, I definitely see violence that I think is meant to titillate a certain type of male reader. I suppose it happens from the female side too, although I think those books are much less mainstream. I find it much easier to write violence that affects males than any that affects females. But such violence does happen in real life so it’s sometimes a hard line to figure.<BR/><BR/> Crushed, I haven’t read anything by Hutson. I’m going to have to look him up.<BR/><BR/> Lisa, I’ve only written one story that featured a rapist engaging in sexual violence against a female. It was called “Razor White” and was one of the biggest selling stories I ever had. I’ve still not returned to that subject matter, even though I made sure the rapist got his in the end.<BR/> Scott, well when you watch Italian horror films, my friend, you probably would think Cold in the Light was a light hearted romp. Lol.<BR/> SQT, actually, I can too. Not sure why that should be. You’re right, the subtitle on those westerns surely does give a clear statement as to what you’re about to get. Well said.<BR/><BR/> Cath, suggestion is often more powerful than showing, for sure.<BR/><BR/> Chris Gruber, that’s why it’s a delicate line. I’ve read enough history to know of terrible massacres, terrible tortures. If you look at almost any army in history you’ll find absolute horror done against fellow human beings. But there seems to me a line between showing the truth of what horror might have happened, and lingering on that horror gloatingly. Trouble is, I’m not sure exactly where that line is myself, and it shifts based upon all kinds of subtle factors in the writing.<BR/><BR/> Lana Gramlich, nothing wrong with that. I go through very different moods myself as to what I’ll tolerate or not tolerate.<BR/><BR/> Sidney, I’ve not read any of the later Edge ones but I’ve heard from another reader that the tone changed. Even the earlier ones did have some tongue in cheek elements, certainly some black humor.<BR/><BR/> cs harris, I never liked slasher flicks either. I like a good scary movie and don’t mind gore, but just going repeatedly for shock value loses its power with me pretty quickly.<BR/><BR/> Erik Donald France, The Spaghetti westerns seemed to do it right, to me. They were very violent, and some times there were sadistic elements, but the violence worked with the movie as a whole.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-53272496954671584202009-02-25T22:19:00.000-06:002009-02-25T22:19:00.000-06:00When it is integral and fuels great story-making s...When it is integral and fuels great story-making sex & (esp) violence are worthy tools of the artist. In the hands of an adolescent mentality it veers too close to pathology for my taste.<BR/>Aloha, CharlesCloudiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05853753108637831069noreply@blogger.com