tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post3443842871646364630..comments2024-02-12T17:59:33.534-06:00Comments on RAZORED ZEN: A Genre Must Evolve?Charles Gramlichhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-24587023703341633152007-12-24T13:17:00.000-06:002007-12-24T13:17:00.000-06:00Angie, yes, good points. The primary reason that ...Angie, yes, good points. The primary reason that I'd like to make money from my writing is because it would give me the freedom to write more. As long as I'm making some money I can avoid teaching in the summers and still survive. But if I have to give my stuff away then it becomes impossible for me to maintain my writing because it would come at the expense of those who depend on me.<BR/><BR/>Middle-ditch, I agree with you. It takes effort to make something readable. There's a quote about that, "I'm sorry to have written such a long letter; I didn't have time to write a short one." <BR/><BR/>Erik, yes, the variety of creativity in the human race should be celebrated. New stuff, older themes, experimental.<BR/><BR/>Leigh, I know the feeling. Have a happy holiday season.<BR/><BR/>Lucas, I think it is an example of "evolution" in the genres and I like it a lot myself. It's a good way to keep the tried and true <BR/>elements while mixing them with something else.<BR/><BR/>Eric1313, thanks for the link, to my blog and for the images. I'll check it out.<BR/><BR/>Lindy, thanks for reading. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you as well. Enjoy.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-34577032460742918292007-12-24T11:31:00.000-06:002007-12-24T11:31:00.000-06:00Merry Christmas, Charles. I always enjoy the thoug...Merry Christmas, Charles. I always enjoy the thoughtful comments you leave around the blogspot. <BR/>I also really like the articles you post. The subject matter is always interesting, entertaining and thought-provoking. As well, the posts are very well written and expressed. <BR/>This one has evoked a great debate and brought forth worthy debate opponents. I'll have to come back after the busy holiday season and give it a closer read.<BR/>Just wanted to wish you and your family a happy holiday.<BR/>LindyPythia3https://www.blogger.com/profile/15682761270108828712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-25433777731227332392007-12-24T02:23:00.000-06:002007-12-24T02:23:00.000-06:00Right, the publisher and editors often feel a need...Right, the publisher and editors often feel a need to pigeon hole us. Genres are marketing categories as much as a label for us.<BR/><BR/>And thanks for the word about the images. I try to find all the best ones I can. I love the technology. Most of my pics come from here:<BR/><BR/>http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html<BR/><BR/>Astronomy picture of the day. Free domain. An invaluable resource for stock pics as well as details.<BR/><BR/>And thanks for the link. I'll link you up too.eric1313https://www.blogger.com/profile/13807078704660045859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-23433007064198106082007-12-23T21:47:00.000-06:002007-12-23T21:47:00.000-06:00I agree, though, does this evolution stretch as fa...I agree, though, does this evolution stretch as far as cross genres? Like the mingling of horror and science fiction, or horror with a dash of romance, or a crime story involving a unicorn? I have to wonder. Is this cross genre stuff a form of evolution?<BR/>Curious...Lucas Pedersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13072101177732602824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-88567985611829398712007-12-23T18:16:00.000-06:002007-12-23T18:16:00.000-06:00ps will be back to read all this when I have time ...ps will be back to read all this when I have time - busy writing at the moment but this looks interesting!Leigh Russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15080517449825380527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-29137314866584831512007-12-23T18:15:00.000-06:002007-12-23T18:15:00.000-06:00Happy Christmas and Happy New YearHappy Christmas and Happy New YearLeigh Russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15080517449825380527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-32809843929173593732007-12-23T16:34:00.000-06:002007-12-23T16:34:00.000-06:00There's room for everybody. If people are still ma...There's room for everybody. If people are still making movies about <I>Beowulf</I>, they can also make experimental clips, too. <BR/><BR/>The conventions of genre are kind of fun and challenging. A blues song has the same form but can sound like a Led Zeppelin song or a Leadbelly song. And depends on the mood at the time . . . I guess :->Erik Donald Francehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02332500850365598564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-30795062814059321112007-12-23T12:13:00.000-06:002007-12-23T12:13:00.000-06:00Erm ... What can I say? Not much. The only thing t...Erm ... What can I say? Not much. The only thing that I know is, the easier the read, the harder it was to write.<BR/><BR/>Happy Christmas Charles. See you next year.Middle Ditchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16493665280732775898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-65669850150560288952007-12-23T11:20:00.000-06:002007-12-23T11:20:00.000-06:00Charles -- I do think good writers will get publis...Charles -- <I>I do think good writers will get published today because of the internet, but will they be able to make any money and support their efforts so they can write more?</I><BR/><BR/>Or will they even find an audience? [nod] I don't know how many e-publishers are taking heroic fantasy, sticking with that example, but I haven't run across many offering it so my guess is not many. And even the e-publishers, most of them, have a pretty limited audience -- and that's just considering erotic romance, which is arguably the most popular genre in e-publishing right now. So someone writing shadows of Conan is going to have an even harder time finding a place, and that place will have an even smaller audience.<BR/><BR/>If money isn't an issue, one can always just post one's own stories online. Depending on what sorts of special interest groups there are for that genre, where new stories can be publicized, one can probably find readers. But it still won't be all that many, compared to the audience a print book will get at Borders or Amazon.<BR/><BR/>It's true that the internet gives everyone the opportunity to publish -- as in, making available to the public -- their writing. Whether readers will find and read any given story is a completely different issue, though. While it's great that e-publishers open up smaller niche markets the NY publishers won't touch (at least until some of the larger e-publishers, like Ellora's Cave, show them that there <I>is</I> money to be made), it's still not the same order of magnitude, in either money <I>or</I> audience, that one can get from a more traditional publisher.<BR/><BR/>The whole marketing thing is something we still need to work on, in the e-publishing end of the industry.<BR/><BR/>AngieAngiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-53264437977225103842007-12-23T10:58:00.000-06:002007-12-23T10:58:00.000-06:00Donnetta, thanks. It would be great to have room ...Donnetta, thanks. It would be great to have room for both the old and the new.<BR/><BR/>Jack, I figured it might be this way for art. I imagine sometimes folks like us will be called dinosaurs. But hey, the dinosaurs lived a lot longer than the "primates" have so far.<BR/><BR/>Szelsofa,yes, change for the sake of change is not productive. I don't think.<BR/><BR/>JR, you're right in some cases. The gatekeepers are locking the gates against what many of us would like to read.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-5604391413741130472007-12-23T10:53:00.000-06:002007-12-23T10:53:00.000-06:00This post certainly touched a nerve with a lot of ...This post certainly touched a nerve with a lot of people! I agree with you, Charles. I've liked the same sorts of books and movies since I was a child, and it annoys me that they cycle in and out of popularity. <BR/><BR/>I suspect it's not just sales figures driving proclamations about "readers don't want this anymore." I think editors get bored (they read 1000 times as many vampire books as the rest of us, many of them bad or rehashes) and want something new. <BR/><BR/>The "dead" genres come back into fashion as a new generation of editors comes onto the scene for whom these books are fresh and new. <BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, the small presses and epublishers stay alive by taking chances and publishing out-of-the-genre-box books as well as the kind of books that the big publishers claim readers don't want.Shauna Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03871768714926149114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-83438495144471189742007-12-23T08:59:00.000-06:002007-12-23T08:59:00.000-06:00I sometimes think it's the editors who need to evo...I sometimes think it's the editors who need to evolve, or at least take a risk on certain stories, even if it borders the genre they're working with.JR's Thumbprintshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10479324326541901987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-62907429463144233982007-12-23T08:13:00.000-06:002007-12-23T08:13:00.000-06:00There are some artists who make strange, unprecede...There are some artists who make strange, unprecedented actions and call themselves artists. I disagree.<BR/>A good story, a good style should stay; and should not be changed just for the sake of change.<BR/><BR/>Merry Christmas to you all!SzélsőFahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11600289147447182465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-22363587385784521382007-12-23T03:58:00.000-06:002007-12-23T03:58:00.000-06:00Well said, Charles. I've been thinking stuff like...Well said, Charles. I've been thinking stuff like this for ages, but I've never been able to write it down in a clear way that other people could understand. Thank you. I feel this way about art, too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-70450096854036137962007-12-22T19:28:00.000-06:002007-12-22T19:28:00.000-06:00Well said, Charles, and I totally agree. I want to...Well said, Charles, and I totally agree. I want to write my children's book--but I keep running into this idea that it isn't "like" the newer children's literature. Yet something keeps nagging at me that some child somewhere would like to read MY story, written a tad differently than the new formulas. Heck, maybe I'm crazy. I can't operate an iphone either. <BR/>DonnettaDonnettahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14831771508607746472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-53532784701042393602007-12-22T18:11:00.000-06:002007-12-22T18:11:00.000-06:00Again, I took two posts to answer everyone's comme...Again, I took two posts to answer everyone's comments, so if you're not here you're in the ones above.<BR/><BR/>Bernita, I find that folks don't have much of an idea how biological evolution really works, which makes it difficult to use as a metaphor.<BR/><BR/>Steve Malley, I don't mind that kind of change at all, and got involved one time pretty heavily in the revisionism of the vampire. Though I don't write many vampire things now. I still think, though, that someone might be able to do something wonderful with a more traditional vampire, and many folks might like to read it.<BR/><BR/>Travis, that's very much what I'm thinking of in a nutshell. I sometimes like to read radically new stuff, but sometimes I want a story that is similar (but not exactly the same) as one I've enjoyed before.<BR/><BR/>Editors are not "just" readers. They, in a way, make policy. I suppose this has both pro and con elements to it.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-84099363779389044372007-12-22T18:05:00.000-06:002007-12-22T18:05:00.000-06:00eric1313, Love the images on your blogs. I linked...eric1313, Love the images on your blogs. I linked in today. Good point about writers creating the genres. Unfortunately, the publishers then tend to straitjacket the genres too much. Although some of this comes from readers as well.<BR/><BR/>Angie, good points all. The scarcity of resources is very important. I do think good writers will get published today because of the internet, but will they be able to make any money and support their efforts so they can write more? That's a bigger question.<BR/><BR/>Michelle, I agree. We could have both, and I--for one--love to see a writer take an older theme and really knock it out of the park. I like a little bit of everything, I guess.<BR/><BR/>Julie, yes, the culture as a whole is becoming more fragmented in special interests because of the growth of the internet. That's not necessarily bad, but it makes a lot of work for writers trying to find those niche markets, which the big publishers don't care much for.Charles Gramlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052592247572253641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-73649298453217214432007-12-22T15:04:00.000-06:002007-12-22T15:04:00.000-06:00Boy, anything I would have said has pretty much be...Boy, anything I would have said has pretty much been covered, so, all of the above. It's tough out there. I know I have readers who LOVE my stories, but I can't seem to find an editor willing to BUY those stories. So I think there is a definite gap between readers and editors. <BR/><BR/>And it does seem to be a Catch 22 when it seems editors are clammoring for "something new" but seem to be publishing a lot of the same old same old. *shrug*<BR/><BR/>I don't know.<BR/><BR/>For now, I'm going to hide from that question for the next week or so. I just dropped by to wish you and your family a very merry holiday and happy new year.Rachel V. Olivierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08993034871233904955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-83323490324425060452007-12-22T13:04:00.000-06:002007-12-22T13:04:00.000-06:00When I first read Tolkien, I wanted more of the sa...When I first read Tolkien, I wanted more of the same kind of story. And that's what I went searching for. Most of the time I found it.<BR/><BR/>But sometimes I found things that were slightly different. I enjoyed those. I enjoyed fewer of the things that were radically different.<BR/><BR/>If the market calls for something new, then writers may certainly capitalize on that. But I agree that a possible new market doesn't necessarily eliminate the old market. Nor do I think it is necessary to change what is being done if it is successful and wanted.Travis Codyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06192526507760146748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-17776163511647315692007-12-22T12:57:00.000-06:002007-12-22T12:57:00.000-06:00I think evolution's natural and, to a certain exte...I think evolution's natural and, to a certain extent, unavoidable. It's a cycle of innovation, imitation and stagnation that's as old as creation myth. <BR/><BR/>Innovation: A new monster, sorta based on Eastern European folktales and fraught with Freudian fright appears. Dracula takes the world by storm. <BR/><BR/>Imitation: For a loooooonnnnng time, vampires wear tuxedos and skulk about castles. In fact, most of them *are* Dracula, done again and again.<BR/><BR/>Stagnation: the fright factor wears off, and Dracula chases Abbot & Costello, is a doddering grandpa on a 60's comedy show and appears on cereal boxes as Count Chocula. <BR/><BR/>Which state leads to...<BR/><BR/>Innovation: Anne Rice creates a vampire like no one's ever seen. Philosophical and homoerotic, The blood and killing and stuff are kind of beside the point. Lestat and Louis take the world by storm.<BR/><BR/>And we all watched the ten thousand knockoffs appear. They examined their consciences, fought ghosts and demons, had sex with humans (A LOT) and solved crimes on the night shift. <BR/><BR/>Until a couple or so years ago, vampires quit selling. Editors said, "No more vampires. They ain't readin' vampires now." Agents said, "Please, not so much with the vampires, unless they're *really* fresh and original!"<BR/><BR/>Did The Historian change anything? I don't know.Steve Malleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17561234111786788616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-91058108282761183662007-12-22T12:55:00.000-06:002007-12-22T12:55:00.000-06:00If we could have a definition of just wotinhell th...If we could have a definition of just wotinhell they mean when they throw out 'evolve" it might be easier.<BR/>Basically, I agree with you, Charles.Bernitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05264585685253812090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-34540007770875790972007-12-22T11:25:00.000-06:002007-12-22T11:25:00.000-06:00...Seems to me the issue evolution of genre or not......Seems to me the issue evolution of genre or not is part of the much bigger issue of the narrowing of culture gap Lisa alluded to in her comment. ie, generational groups have less in common with each other in an increasingly shorter space of time - and the dominant interest 'form' then shapes or influences the world of books.virtual nexushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11955335598875413324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-48525459275479282332007-12-22T10:28:00.000-06:002007-12-22T10:28:00.000-06:00Hey Charles,You're preaching to the choir on this ...Hey Charles,<BR/><BR/>You're preaching to the choir on this one! I'm a Taurus and we do not change ever. (think Jim Jones, Freud, James Brown . . . ha!) On a serious note, I don't really think evolution is necessary. Why not have those who want to evolve do it and leave the rest of us alone? People worry too much about being original and creative instead of being good and writing things that people want to read.Michelle's Spellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15769666862403600253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-27245116112515124002007-12-22T09:32:00.000-06:002007-12-22T09:32:00.000-06:00My reaction here is yes and no. Yes, a genre has ...My reaction here is yes and no. Yes, a genre has to evolve (or lets just say "change," since you're right about the definition of "evolution" and it doesn't necessarily apply here) to meet the tastes and preferences of its readers, and to move away from themes or gimmicks the larger mass of readers has grown tired of. But no, in the absence of such a change in reader tastes, a genre doesn't <I>have</I> to change just to be changing. And there are always going to be disagreements among readers about what's good or what's passe or what they've had enough of. There need to be new kinds of stories to satisfy the readers who hop from fad to fad, but there also need to be old style stories for the readers who settle in and are comfortable with a favorite kind of book for decades.<BR/><BR/>There's also the issue of scarce resources, though, and editors trying to predict what readers will want two years down the road, and they only have a limited number of publishing slots in their schedule. In the case of heroic fantasy, Howard is already there. So long as Howard is in print, the books which are arguably the best in heroic wandering-barbarian fantasy are available to any new reader who might come along. Anyone else who wants to write heroic fantasy has to compete with Howard, and convince an editor that they're at least that good. And establishing their own voice in the subgenre means a writer has to come up with something <I>like</I> Howard, but with something new and different and memorable. That right there is going to drive a certain amount of change.<BR/><BR/>In the case of epic quest-fantasy, there are enough readers to support a host of Tolkien imitators, despite a certain amount of sneering from the sidelines. There are enough readers who want more of this kind of story that Tolkien isn't enough, and so that kind of fantasy has flourished, and grown and changed and spawned new subgenres with their own star writers. I'm not a Conan fan so I don't know how many readers there are in that end of the genre, or how many writers similar to Howard they support. I'm guessing, though, that the editors don't think there are all that many. Whether they're right or not is another issue, but for now someone who wants to write like Howard apparently has an uphill battle to convince an editor that they're worth taking a chance on.<BR/><BR/>Then there's the "rip-off" aspect, which also drives change. How often have you seen or heard a comment about a new book or a new writer, where someone's snarking, "Oh, it's just another Tolkien rip-off," or "Eh, it's just a Conan clone." I know I've heard comments like that over and over, for as long as I've been paying attention to commentary about fantasy writing. Clearly the message here is that it's <I>not</I> enough to keep doing what the old masters did, pretty much the way they did it. One might think that someone who loves that kind of book would be delighted to find more books similar to the classics, but the rip-off comments suggest that's not the case, at least for a certain number of readers who are eager to spread their views around. There might well be a lot of readers out there who <I>would</I> love to read about Vonan the Wanderer, but they're not speaking up loudly enough to drown out the people dissing poor Vonan and his writer.<BR/><BR/>At the same time, I agree with you that the marketing people (and those who listen to them) don't always get it right. Mrs. Fields took her cookie recipe to one company after another, only to be told over and over that it was a great recipe but that no one would want to buy it "because Americans like crunchy cookies." No one at the time stopped to think that 1) it's easy to say that Americans bought billions of crunchy cookies when that was pretty much all that was available, or 2) fig newtons had been selling well for decades despite their lack of crunch. Marketing rules and restrictions are often self-fulfilling, since people can only buy what's out there, and something the marketers don't think will sell won't be offered at all.<BR/><BR/>It seems that a lot of the marketing wisdom is developed in isolation from the larger mass of consumers, and ideas that might sound good, and might even test well in focus groups, aren't necessarily going to work on the general public, or be the best choice. If what readers really want just isn't out there, or if there's a limited number of books actually by Robert E. Howard and the people who like them already <I>have</I> them and aren't buying new ones, then it's easy for the publishers to say that no one's buying heroic fantasy anymore. [wry smile]<BR/><BR/>And the idea that someone can be a better writer than Howard or Tolkien but still be unmarketable is ridiculous. The excellently written stories will always find a readership, whether they create their own genre or subgenre, or just exist as outliers to an existing genre. Different people will always have different ideas of just what "good writing" is, but there are enough people who think Howard was a pretty good writer that someone who's as good as he was or even better really shouldn't have a problem getting published.<BR/><BR/>Or at least, wouldn't have a problem selling. Getting published might be another issue. :/<BR/><BR/>AngieAngiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920578701763415331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28221839.post-17626835493965267972007-12-22T01:48:00.000-06:002007-12-22T01:48:00.000-06:00Wow, everyone has this one covered!That is a terri...Wow, everyone has this one covered!<BR/><BR/>That is a terrible statement to make, that a genre must evolve. Why? So we can try to fit in if we don't? If we don't fit in, so much better for the writing. Genres are created around new writing, not the other way around. We create the genres, expand their boundaries, push the envelopes, explode the expectations (when all is going well). There's nothing wrong with genre writing itself, but we shouldn't wait for somebody to create one for us. That's what writing is for, to carve our own niche.eric1313https://www.blogger.com/profile/13807078704660045859noreply@blogger.com